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Date: 31 Jul 2006 23:53:35
From: Brian Tung
Subject: an astronomy poem
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Not a quit-your-day-job effort, but something out of the ordinary
nonetheless. See here:
http://astro.isi.edu/notes/poem.html
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 09:10:24
From:
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Chris L Peterson wrote:
> Read the poem again. The street lights are censoring the delicate glow
> of Venus and the Milky Way.
You're right. After last night, I'll just say "censor" is way too
delicate a word.
Doug Kniffen
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 12:38:35
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > Read the poem again. The street lights are censoring the delicate glow
> > of Venus and the Milky Way.
Doug Kniffen:
> You're right.
Well done!
> After last night, I'll just say "censor" is way too delicate a word.
In reading poetry you need to switch gears away from the shouting match
that is American society. In the shouting match, "blocking the fucking
light" would be a typical expression, but "censor" is /le/ /mot/
/juste/ in a poem.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 10:02:07
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Davoud wrote:
> > After last night, I'll just say "censor" is way too delicate a word.
>
> In reading poetry you need to switch gears away from the shouting match
> that is American society. In the shouting match, "blocking the fucking
> light" would be a typical expression, but "censor" is /le/ /mot/
> /juste/ in a poem.
Thank you, but I suspect Doug is complaining more about the impact of
streetlights in last night's observing than about my word choice.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 08:44:11
From:
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Tom Polakis wrote:
> Actually, it reads, "street lights *censor their* delicate glow..."
I have yet to see any electric street lights that "glow", and none in
this area censor their glare.
Doug Kniffen
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 12:26:24
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Tom Polakis:
> > Actually, it reads, "street lights *censor their* delicate glow..."
>
Doug Kniffen:
> I have yet to see any electric street lights that "glow", and none in
> this area censor their glare.
You're still missing it. Please read again:
Out in the countryside, Venus shines bright,
And the Milky Way hangs overhead.
In town, street lights censor their delicate glow,
Like writings thought better unread.
Now, with apologies to Mr. Tung, here is a paraphrase of the part whose
meaning you are not getting:
Out in the countryside, Venus shines bright,
And the Milky Way hangs overhead.
I think you get this part.
(In town, street lights censor their delicate glow,
Like writings thought better unread.)
In town, street lights *block* the delicate glow of Venus and the Milky
Way,
As if the streetlights think (or, perhaps, know) that the delicate glow
of Venus and the Milky Way are things we should not see.
The poem says that Venus and the Milky Way emit the delicate glow,
*not* the street lights -- *their* means "of Venus and the Milky Way."
In town, the street lights "censor," i.e., "prevent us from seeing" the
delicate glow of Venus and the Milky Way.
Beautiful poem, my favorite style: spare, yet full of meaning. I'm
afraid the poem is ruined for you, however. Too bad. I'm not skilled at
reading poetry by any means, but I know enough to know that one must
/learn/ to read poetry; simply being able to read words is not enough.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 09:59:59
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Davoud wrote:
> The poem says that Venus and the Milky Way emit the delicate glow,
> *not* the street lights -- *their* means "of Venus and the Milky Way."
> In town, the street lights "censor," i.e., "prevent us from seeing" the
> delicate glow of Venus and the Milky Way.
Quite right. I knew that this ambiguity might trip up people; that's
one of the reasons I called the translation rough. I prefer not to
signify ambiguities I don't intend.
Ironically, this second couplet is where I departed from my Chinese;
none of the characters means "censor." I put that in there because it
fit, semantically and by scansion. A literal translation of the last
two lines would be more like this:
In the city, they all vanish;
everywhere are the bright lights.
If I didn't concern myself with scansion and rhyme, that's what I'd
have put. Maybe some people would prefer this version.
> Beautiful poem, my favorite style: spare, yet full of meaning.
Thanks very much--those are kind words. I'm very gratified at the time
you folks spent thinking about this.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 05:17:56
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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"Brian Tung" <brian@isi.edu > wrote in message
news:eao1af$3hl$1@praesepe.isi.edu...
> Davoud wrote:
>> The poem says that Venus and the Milky Way emit the delicate glow,
>> *not* the street lights -- *their* means "of Venus and the Milky Way."
>> In town, the street lights "censor," i.e., "prevent us from seeing" the
>> delicate glow of Venus and the Milky Way.
>
> Quite right. I knew that this ambiguity might trip up people; that's
> one of the reasons I called the translation rough. I prefer not to
> signify ambiguities I don't intend.
<snip >
Ambiguities, of course, in poetry are quite often a _good_ thing. From them
comes a lot of the multiple meaning that Davoud refers to.
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 23:22:02
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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John Nichols wrote:
> Ambiguities, of course, in poetry are quite often a _good_ thing. From
> them comes a lot of the multiple meaning that Davoud refers to.
That's fine, as long as the poet actually intended them. When a poet
creates an ambiguity and doesn't catch it until someone else does, that
reveals to me a lack of control over language, not a creative mind.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 16:14:45
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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"Brian Tung" <brian@isi.edu > wrote in message
news:eapgaa$8bs$1@praesepe.isi.edu...
> John Nichols wrote:
>> Ambiguities, of course, in poetry are quite often a _good_ thing. From
>> them comes a lot of the multiple meaning that Davoud refers to.
>
> That's fine, as long as the poet actually intended them. When a poet
> creates an ambiguity and doesn't catch it until someone else does, that
> reveals to me a lack of control over language, not a creative mind.
>
> --
Sometimes, Brian, sometimes. When you get right down to it, you really
can't control what your audience will get from what you write. I've been
amazed at some of the stuff that people have come up with after reading some
of my work. (Not to blow my horn, but I'm not exactly a slouch.)
This very thread over what you intended with *censor* illustrates this.
Sometimes people misread, more often though what they get is result of what
they already have, i.e. what personal experience they are bringing to the
work.
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 09:38:13
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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John Nichols wrote:
> Sometimes, Brian, sometimes. When you get right down to it, you really
> can't control what your audience will get from what you write. I've been
> amazed at some of the stuff that people have come up with after reading some
> of my work. (Not to blow my horn, but I'm not exactly a slouch.)
Yes. I guess I'm kvetching more about poets who say, "Oh, I meant to
do that." Uhh, no you didn't.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 17:04:43
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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"Brian Tung" <brian@isi.edu > wrote in message
news:eaqkdl$cev$1@praesepe.isi.edu...
> John Nichols wrote:
>> Sometimes, Brian, sometimes. When you get right down to it, you really
>> can't control what your audience will get from what you write. I've been
>> amazed at some of the stuff that people have come up with after reading
>> some
>> of my work. (Not to blow my horn, but I'm not exactly a slouch.)
>
> Yes. I guess I'm kvetching more about poets who say, "Oh, I meant to
> do that." Uhh, no you didn't.
>
> --
Oh, I definitely agree. I get real irritated with "poets" who show up at
workshops like that. They're wasting everyone's time.
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 16:01:39
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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On 1 Aug 2006 08:44:11 -0700, dk@usmo.com wrote:
>I have yet to see any electric street lights that "glow", and none in
>this area censor their glare.
Read the poem again. The street lights are censoring the delicate glow
of Venus and the Milky Way.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 08:38:22
From: Tom Polakis
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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dk@usmo.com wrote:
> Brian Tung wrote:
> > http://astro.isi.edu/notes/poem.html
>
> Street light's delicate glow????
>
> Don't know about your area, but around here the street light "glow" is
> about as delicate as the "whisper" of an air impact tool cutting up an
> old car.
Actually, it reads, "street lights *censor their* delicate glow..."
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 08:31:48
From:
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Brian Tung wrote:
> http://astro.isi.edu/notes/poem.html
Street light's delicate glow????
Don't know about your area, but around here the street light "glow" is
about as delicate as the "whisper" of an air impact tool cutting up an
old car.
Doug Kniffen
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 11:26:50
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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"Brian Tung" <brian@isi.edu > wrote in message
news:eamtpf$ukl$1@praesepe.isi.edu...
> Not a quit-your-day-job effort, but something out of the ordinary
> nonetheless. See here:
>
> http://astro.isi.edu/notes/poem.html
>
> --
Interesting, Brian. As a poet, I can tell you that there are markets for
poems like this.
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 07:51:20
From: Marty
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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That IS nice! Reminds me of some of the Chinese poetry in Burnham's.
Marty
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 15:08:18
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Marty wrote:
> That IS nice! Reminds me of some of the Chinese poetry in Burnham's.
Interesting, I'll have to go back through Burnham and look for it.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 19:08:34
From: Marty
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Brian Tung was saying
>Interesting, I'll have to go back through
> Burnham and look for it.
As I remember it, most of it comes along when he's discussing the Milky
Way, which I think he put in the Sagittarius section.
Marty
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 17:52:01
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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The Sun wrote:
> As I remember it, most of it comes along when he's discussing the Milky
> Way, which I think he put in the Sagittarius section.
There certainly are a lot of them in this section. He writes, on p.
1621, "In various Chinese writings we find the Milky Way referred to as
the *River of Heaven*, *the Great Path*, *the Celestial River*, or the
*Han River*...." I chose another traditional name for it, the Silver
River, which contrasts nicely with the Chinese name for Venus, which is
literally the Golden Star. Those of you who like puzzles may find it an
interesting challenge to identify which two characters in the first two
lines correspond to golden and silver.
Some of the poems Burnham selected are very well known, and can be found
in a selection of 310 poems from the T'ang Dynasty. I'll look them up
the next chance I get.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 20:46:01
From: Marty
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Brian Tung was saying
>There certainly are a lot of them in this
> section.
Yup. One I've never forgotten is Tu Fu's "Night Thoughts While
Traveling" written, according to Burnham, in 768 AD.
"A light breeze rustles the reeds
Along the river banks. The
Mast of my lonely boat soars
Into the night. Stars blossom
Over the vast desert of
Waters. Moonlight flows on the
Surging river. M poems have
Made me famous but I grow
Old, ill and tired, blown hither
And yon; I am like a gull
Lost between heaven and earth."
Wish I coulda been there...
Marty
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 03:45:11
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Brian Tung wrote:
> Not a quit-your-day-job effort, but something out of the ordinary
> nonetheless. See here:
>
> http://astro.isi.edu/notes/poem.html
>
> --
> Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu>
> The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
> Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
> The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
> My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Astronomy from the Western Christian tradition has a whole different
center of energy to it,even Newton's pale Arianism could be highlighted
by the poets centuries ago rather than the dull and dreary subservience
of empirical drones here today.
The great intuitive sense that made the poets Kings in the
Judaeo-Christian heritage also makes the works of the great astronomers
shine.The judgement of the poet is the most damning of all,that William
Blake intuitively sensed that Newton's agenda was nothing but
intellectual dross can be affirmed in a more technical way.
Perhaps it is a Western thing for the moment insofar as the energies
which drove Christianity and heliocentric astronomy merge into a
European background,one that you need a real sense of.
He who loves his enemies betrays his friends.
This surely is not what Jesus intends;
But the sneaking pride of heroic schools,
And the Scribes' and Pharisees' virtuous rules,
For He acts with honest, triumphant pride,
And this is the cause that Jesus died.
He did not die with Christian ease,
Asking pardon of His enemies:
If He had, Caiaphas would forgive;
Sneaking submission can always live.
He had only to say that God was the Devil,
And the Devil was God, like a Christian civil;
Mild Christian regrets to the Devil confess
For affronting him thrice in the wilderness;
He had soon been bloody Caesar's elf,
And at last he would have been Caesar himself,
Like Dr. Priestly and Bacon and Newton--
Poor spiritual knowledge is not worth a button!
For thus the Gospel Sir Isaac confutes:
`God can only be known by His attributes;
And as for the indwelling of the Holy Ghost,
Or of Christ and His Father, it's all a boast
And pride, and vanity of the imagination,
That disdains to follow this world's fashion.'
To teach doubt and experiment
Certainly was not what Christ meant.
http://www.publicappeal.org/library/dps/blake/collected/chap-08.html
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 15:07:51
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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By the way, if anyone is sending me e-mail about this with lots of
Chinese in it, it's probably getting spam-filtered. If you want to do
that, you'll likely have to send me ordinary ASCII mail first to let
me know.
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 09:19:46
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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John Nichols wrote:
> "Brian Tung" <brian@isi.edu> wrote in message
> news:eao1af$3hl$1@praesepe.isi.edu...
> > Davoud wrote:
> >> The poem says that Venus and the Milky Way emit the delicate glow,
> >> *not* the street lights -- *their* means "of Venus and the Milky Way."
> >> In town, the street lights "censor," i.e., "prevent us from seeing" the
> >> delicate glow of Venus and the Milky Way.
> >
> > Quite right. I knew that this ambiguity might trip up people; that's
> > one of the reasons I called the translation rough. I prefer not to
> > signify ambiguities I don't intend.
>
> <snip>
>
> Ambiguities, of course, in poetry are quite often a _good_ thing. From them
> comes a lot of the multiple meaning that Davoud refers to.
You are hardly a poet for no poet ever strives for ambiguity although
I well know that pretensious imposters create tangled wordplays and try
to pass it off as poetry.You poor sods think our pre-Christian
ancestors were afraid of natural phenomena but nothing they ever did
indicates that,they celebrated the natural cycles and were closer to
the heart of things than people today.
Having no intuitive sense for astronomy and none for poetry is
probably the closest condition to being subhuman,in actuality it takes
an effort to aquire that miserable condition.Our ancestors often
framed beliefs in poetic terms,not as you understand it, but in ways
that allow the poetry itself to dictate its meaning to the intuitive
intelligence of humanity.You poor sods think they were afraid of
natural phenomena when nothing our ancestors
"The ancient Poets animated all sensible objects with Gods or Geniuses,
calling them by the names and adorning them with the properties of
woods, rivers, mountains, lakes, cities, nations, and whatever their
enlarged & numerous senses could percieve.
And particularly they studied the genius of each city & country,
placing it under its mental deity;Till a system was formed, which some
took advantage of & enslav'd the vulgar by attempting to realize or
abstract the mental deities from their objects: thus began
Priesthood;Choosing forms of worship from poetic tales.And at length
they pronounc'd that the Gods had order'd such things.Thus men forgot
that All deities reside in the human breast." William Blake
http://www.gailgastfield.com/mhh/mhh.html
The great intutive fountain which was once heliocentric astronomy is
now a celestial sphere cistern.
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 09:05:57
From:
Subject: Re: an astronomy poem
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Brian Tung wrote:
> I suspect Doug is complaining more about the impact of
> streetlights in last night's observing than about my word choice.
Yes.
I'll offer the following two lines for illustration:
In town, street lights obliterate the heavenly glow,
Like words of wisdom meant to remain unread.
Doug Kniffen
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