Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

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Date: 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58
From: Mean Mr Mustard
Subject: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
the libertarian party.

Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
... show them M31 and they groan "huh"

Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
Hubble??

Date: 16 Dec 2006 05:40:56
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com > babbled in message
news:1166239318.653875.82110@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
<snip >
>Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

We don't.
--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"

Date: 15 Dec 2006 19:47:20
From:
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

Precisely.

It's generally acknowledged this has been one of the poorest sales
years
for amateur astronomy and I see the situation becoming similar to what
happened to those of us who used to build Heathkits and Dynaco kits --
no
longer cost-effective.

After 50+ years in the hobby I've seen at the eyepiece just about
everything there
is that's possible to see visually and it just doesn't make sense to
compete with
the space and other pro scopes when it comes to imaging today given the
worsening atmospheric conditions. 40 years ago the Milky Way was a
naked-eye
scene from my backyard; today, same backyard, it's rare to be able to
see more
than 3 stars visually in Ursa Minor.

I'm selling off a lot of telescope gear and getting camera gear; at
least DSLRs
and photography can be practiced regardless of the weather and skies.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 07:16:13
From: elaich
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

thad@thadlabs.com wrote in news:1166240840.900595.60000@
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

> 40 years ago the Milky Way was a
> naked-eye
> scene from my backyard; today, same backyard, it's rare to be able to
> see more
> than 3 stars visually in Ursa Minor.
>

Sounds like you need to move.

Date: 20 Dec 2006 22:48:18
From: Trane Francks
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On 2006-12-16 12:47 +0900, thad@thadlabs.com wrote:

> 40 years ago the Milky Way was a naked-eye;
> today, same backyard, it's rare to be able to
> see more than 3 stars visually in Ursa Minor.

Here in the Tokyo 'burbs, I can see Polaris on a good night. :-(

trane
--
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Trane Francks trane@gol.com Tokyo, Japan
// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 03:40:03
From: Florian
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

>Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>Hubble??

Because we enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it don't do it.

.Florian

Date: 16 Dec 2006 10:25:18
From: Matthew Ota
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Quoting Uncle Rod from a few months ago:

amateur (and professional) astronomers in general

--Read books.
--Don't give a hoot who wins American Idol.
--Are interested in discussing matters of more import than what Paris
Hilton
wore (or didn't wear) last night.
--Who'd rather be at the TSP enjoying the real universe than living a
plastic,
prefabricated one at Disney World.
--Who are only interested in keeping up with the Joneses if the Joneses
have a
16 inch LX200.
--Are interested in people for their ideas (at least in addition to
:-)) their
bodies.
--Prefer to make up their own minds about a lot of things.
--Are happier in a bookstore or a library than at the mall.
--Are proud to have excelled academically.
--Whose children's academic careers are a huge priority for the family.

I could go on...but if any of the above makes me "socially retarded," I
am
proud to be so. ;-)

BTW, I know numerous artists who are not "ego centric"...and, what's a
"what
not"? A Post Impressionist? ;-)

Peace,
Rod Mollise

My comments:

Sure, the Hubble and other spacecraft take much better images of the
planets and the universe than what amateurs can do from the ground.

However, imaging and looking through the eyepiece is a personal
experience, a way to directly connect to the universe and what is going
on in it.

When I was a child I observed the moon in my cheap department store
telescope while the Apollo astronauts were working on the surface
there. I knew I could not see them but it fired my imagination just
knowing they were there.

Now after doing over five years of astronomy outreach, I have shown
hundreds of clients the planet Saturn and tell them of the Cassini
Huygens mission there and all of the incredible science results they
are getting. I try my best to get them excited about not only astronomy
but science in general.

I am too old now to participate in the aerospace industry as I did
when I was younger. But I hope that the first person to set foot on
Mars will have had their start by looking at Mars through mine or
somebody else's telescope.

Matthew Ota
Orange Co. Astronomers
Mt. Wilson Observatory Assn.
South Bay Astronomical Society

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

Date: 16 Dec 2006 04:50:22
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>

What you are into is a magnification exercise.You use a system where
all observed objects are pasted on to a celestial sphere which moves
around you in a predictable way based on 3 years of 365 days and 1 year
of 366 days.

It is not a cult but it sure can't be classified as astronomy,neith the
ancient astronomy and its excellent time reckoning side or Western
astronomy based on resolving the observed motion of planets.There
should be a new addition to solar system astronomy in terms of
structure and motion but the 'geeks' l;apse back into celestial sphere
geometry making even solar system astronomy impossible.

> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>

Show them Jupiter and Saturn in motion over the course of a year and
the faster Earth overtaking them and you will soon forget the
convenience of the Ra/Dec system -

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

You are using a different type of intelligence when affirming how
planetary motions around the Sun are seen from an orbitally moving
Earth and that is astronomy !.

> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

Use modern imaging for all it is worth to promote the great cycles
which make existence possible.The motions of Mercury overtaking the
Earth a few weeks ago,the shadow of Io and how the Earth's and
Jupiter's orbital motion condition which side the shadow exists to the
left or right of Io,the maximum deviation of the global orbital shadow
to fixed axiaol orientation coming up in a few days and lots of other
ways to promote intuitive astronomy.

Astronomy is a sleeping giant,it is made that way by people who aim too
low or pretensious people who make the celestial arena a playground
for every exotic notion that pops into their heads.

Why not try to work with Io's shadow in affirming the orbital motion of
Jupiter and Earth around the Sun -

http://faculty.rmwc.edu/tmichalik/images/jupmoons4.jpg

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9904/ioshadowc_hst_big.jpg

It is a great way to appreciate the changing orbital orientation of the
Earth and it is intricate enough to appeal to your intelligence.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 08:45:06
From: Marty
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

>Telling someone you're into astronomy is
> akin to proclaiming you've gone insane.
> They look at you strangely as if you
> belong to a cult or the libertarian party.

Actually, I don't usually get that kind of a reaction. When I mention
to people that I'm into astronomy, they usually show some interest, and
often ask a few questions. Maybe I'm just such a hopeless geek that I
don't realize they're making fun of me...
>I can't stand "Field and Streamer"
> types..but so what? They like fishing
> and shooting animals and pay
>huge money to support their habit!!

As far as my shooting interests, (targets with handguns,) I live in
a very rural area, and so I don't stand out much. And I can do it in
the daytime, even when it's cloudy, and the moon is full!
Marty

Date: 16 Dec 2006 18:36:04
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Maybe because they are stupid.

"oriel36" <geraldkelleher@yahoo.com > wrote:

>
>Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>>
>
>What you are into is a magnification exercise.You use a system where
>all observed objects are pasted on to a celestial sphere which moves
>around you in a predictable way based on 3 years of 365 days and 1 year
>of 366 days.
>
>It is not a cult but it sure can't be classified as astronomy,neith the
>ancient astronomy and its excellent time reckoning side or Western
>astronomy based on resolving the observed motion of planets.There
>should be a new addition to solar system astronomy in terms of
>structure and motion but the 'geeks' l;apse back into celestial sphere
>geometry making even solar system astronomy impossible.
>
>
>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>
>
>Show them Jupiter and Saturn in motion over the course of a year and
>the faster Earth overtaking them and you will soon forget the
>convenience of the Ra/Dec system -
>
>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif
>
>You are using a different type of intelligence when affirming how
>planetary motions around the Sun are seen from an orbitally moving
>Earth and that is astronomy !.
>
>
>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
>> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>> Hubble??
>
>Use modern imaging for all it is worth to promote the great cycles
>which make existence possible.The motions of Mercury overtaking the
>Earth a few weeks ago,the shadow of Io and how the Earth's and
>Jupiter's orbital motion condition which side the shadow exists to the
>left or right of Io,the maximum deviation of the global orbital shadow
>to fixed axiaol orientation coming up in a few days and lots of other
>ways to promote intuitive astronomy.
>
>Astronomy is a sleeping giant,it is made that way by people who aim too
>low or pretensious people who make the celestial arena a playground
>for every exotic notion that pops into their heads.
>
>Why not try to work with Io's shadow in affirming the orbital motion of
>Jupiter and Earth around the Sun -
>
>http://faculty.rmwc.edu/tmichalik/images/jupmoons4.jpg
>
>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9904/ioshadowc_hst_big.jpg
>
>It is a great way to appreciate the changing orbital orientation of the
>Earth and it is intricate enough to appeal to your intelligence.

James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net

Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121

Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:32:18
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Jim Klein wrote:
> Maybe because they are stupid.

50% of everybody is of below average intelligence. A lot of the rest
are sheep, who don't think about the rest of the universe outside of
work, their bed table and T.V., and the kids' school (where astronomy is
glossed over because it's not part of NCLB). US centric view anyway.

Shawn

Date: 18 Dec 2006 03:16:48
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

I majored in Astronomy at UCLA in the 60's. You would be surprised to
know how many people asked my mom if I would do their horoscopes for
them including my dad's mother. :-)

The advantage of Astrology over Astronomy is the extremely reasonable
price of the tools needed to predict the future compared with the
telescopes and CCD cameras needed for Astronomy. :-)

Jim

Jim Klein <jameseklein@earthlink.net > wrote:

>Maybe because they are stupid.
>
>"oriel36" <geraldkelleher@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>>> the libertarian party.
>>>
>>
>>What you are into is a magnification exercise.You use a system where
>>all observed objects are pasted on to a celestial sphere which moves
>>around you in a predictable way based on 3 years of 365 days and 1 year
>>of 366 days.
>>
>>It is not a cult but it sure can't be classified as astronomy,neith the
>>ancient astronomy and its excellent time reckoning side or Western
>>astronomy based on resolving the observed motion of planets.There
>>should be a new addition to solar system astronomy in terms of
>>structure and motion but the 'geeks' l;apse back into celestial sphere
>>geometry making even solar system astronomy impossible.
>>
>>
>>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>>
>>
>>Show them Jupiter and Saturn in motion over the course of a year and
>>the faster Earth overtaking them and you will soon forget the
>>convenience of the Ra/Dec system -
>>
>>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif
>>
>>You are using a different type of intelligence when affirming how
>>planetary motions around the Sun are seen from an orbitally moving
>>Earth and that is astronomy !.
>>
>>
>>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
>>> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>>> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>>> Hubble??
>>
>>Use modern imaging for all it is worth to promote the great cycles
>>which make existence possible.The motions of Mercury overtaking the
>>Earth a few weeks ago,the shadow of Io and how the Earth's and
>>Jupiter's orbital motion condition which side the shadow exists to the
>>left or right of Io,the maximum deviation of the global orbital shadow
>>to fixed axiaol orientation coming up in a few days and lots of other
>>ways to promote intuitive astronomy.
>>
>>Astronomy is a sleeping giant,it is made that way by people who aim too
>>low or pretensious people who make the celestial arena a playground
>>for every exotic notion that pops into their heads.
>>
>>Why not try to work with Io's shadow in affirming the orbital motion of
>>Jupiter and Earth around the Sun -
>>
>>http://faculty.rmwc.edu/tmichalik/images/jupmoons4.jpg
>>
>>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9904/ioshadowc_hst_big.jpg
>>
>>It is a great way to appreciate the changing orbital orientation of the
>>Earth and it is intricate enough to appeal to your intelligence.
>
>James E. Klein
>jameseklein@earthlink.net
>
>Engineering Calculations
>http://www.ecalculations.com
>ecalculations@ecalculations.com
>Engineering Calculations is the home of
>the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
>for Windows.
>1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
>1-818-823-4121

James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net

Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121

Date: 18 Dec 2006 06:11:39
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Jim Klein" <jameseklein@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:cr1co2917jg20441o7o6atrkifdirrnsjf@4ax.com...
>I majored in Astronomy at UCLA in the 60's. You would be surprised to
> know how many people asked my mom if I would do their horoscopes for
> them including my dad's mother. :-)
>
> The advantage of Astrology over Astronomy is the extremely reasonable
> price of the tools needed to predict the future compared with the
> telescopes and CCD cameras needed for Astronomy. :-)
>

THE 60's???

I guess the sky hasn't changed a lot since anything resembling humanity with
some
kind of brain looked up..save vega and polaris.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 07:07:02
From: Joe S.
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1166239318.653875.82110@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??
>

Something about prophets, honor, and their own land.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 07:33:43
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

And then they find those of us who sit up on public street corners and talk
astronomy as we show them the moon and planets. That's they of Sidewalk
Astronomy.

--
There are those who believe that life here, began out there, far across the
universe, with tribes of humans, who may have been the forefathers of the
Egyptians, or the Toltechs, or the Mayans. Some believe that they may yet be
brothers of man, who even now fight to survive, somewhere beyond the
heavens.

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
The Church of Eternity
http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html

"Joe S." <anon@mous.net > wrote in message
news:em0nin0d6v@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> "Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1166239318.653875.82110@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>>
>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>
>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
>> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>> Hubble??
>>
>
> Something about prophets, honor, and their own land.
>
>
>

Date: 16 Dec 2006 08:53:17
From: Peter Lynch
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58 -0800, Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream?

Two words: normative pressure.
People don't like being separated from the herd. So while most
individuals spend their free time slumped in front of the TV
others, with hobbies, are out there doing things that they enjoy.

You find that pretty much any hobby gets a similar reaction. It
identifies you as being apart from the "normal" range of social
activities.

Pete
--
..........................................................................
. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

Date: 16 Dec 2006 10:34:18
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Peter Lynch" <pete@freyr.local > wrote in message
news:slrneo7div.1t6.pete@freyr.local...
> On 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58 -0800, Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>>
>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>
>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream?
>
> Two words: normative pressure.
> People don't like being separated from the herd. So while most
> individuals spend their free time slumped in front of the TV
> others, with hobbies, are out there doing things that they enjoy.
>
> You find that pretty much any hobby gets a similar reaction. It
> identifies you as being apart from the "normal" range of social
> activities.
>

It's basically just another GEEKOUT hobby. "normies" don't like geeks and
what they do.
It's like the "keener" in school. We all hate keeners, unless you are one.

I can't stand "Field and Streamer" types..but so what? They like fishing
and shooting animals and pay
huge money to support their habit!!

Date: 17 Dec 2006 21:56:05
From: LurfysMa
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:53:17 GMT, Peter Lynch <pete@freyr.local >
wrote:

>On 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58 -0800, Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>>
>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>
>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream?
>
>Two words: normative pressure.
>People don't like being separated from the herd. So while most
>individuals spend their free time slumped in front of the TV
>others, with hobbies, are out there doing things that they enjoy.
>
>You find that pretty much any hobby gets a similar reaction. It
>identifies you as being apart from the "normal" range of social
>activities.

I think this is at least part of it. A lot of mediocre people dislike
anyone who puts out an effort. And it's getting worse here in the U.S.
We are too affluent, too soft. Too many mindless TV shoes and too much
Madison Avenue. (end soapbox)

--

Date: 17 Dec 2006 06:30:14
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Mean Mr Mustard"

Such a mean old man..such a dirty old man...

Date: 16 Dec 2006 20:04:29
From: Professor Marvel
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

A follow-up to my own posting a moment ago .......

Do you ever remember a kid being ridiculed because (s)he excelled in
math and/or science? Teasing was not uncommon for "brains" when I
went to school. On the other hand, how many kids were teased or
ridiculed because they excelled in football or basketball? It's been
a while since I was in school but the culture has not changed, and the
kids have only gotten older.

Professor Marvel

Professor Marvel wrote:
> People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical pursuit
> (or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only the physical.
> Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same goes for skiing,
> mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf, bowling, hockey, soccer
> .... they are all physical pursuits ... even just watching sports is OK
> because it is related to a physical pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget
> it; it is culturally unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!
>
> Professor Marvel
>
> Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> > Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> > gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> > the libertarian party.
> >
> > Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> > ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> > ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
> >
> > Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> > insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> > our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> > Hubble??

Date: 17 Dec 2006 06:35:10
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Professor Marvel" <professor.marvel@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166328269.779064.76590@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>A follow-up to my own posting a moment ago .......
>
> Do you ever remember a kid being ridiculed because (s)he excelled in
> math and/or science? Teasing was not uncommon for "brains" when I
> went to school. On the other hand, how many kids were teased or
> ridiculed because they excelled in football or basketball? It's been
> a while since I was in school but the culture has not changed, and the
> kids have only gotten older.

I really don't think people care one way or the other as long as you can at
least
make them....look up..look wayyy up.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:34:16
From: Professor Marvel
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical pursuit
(or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only the physical.
Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same goes for skiing,
mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf, bowling, hockey, soccer
.... they are all physical pursuits ... even just watching sports is OK
because it is related to a physical pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget
it; it is culturally unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!

Professor Marvel

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:28:55
From: david parkin
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Non physical????????????
You try getting my mount out of the shed then.

"Professor Marvel" <professor.marvel@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166326456.452791.83940@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical pursuit
> (or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only the physical.
> Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same goes for skiing,
> mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf, bowling, hockey, soccer
> .... they are all physical pursuits ... even just watching sports is OK
> because it is related to a physical pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget
> it; it is culturally unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!
>

Dave P.

Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:12:18
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

david parkin wrote:
> Non physical????????????
> You try getting my mount out of the shed then.
>
> "Professor Marvel" <professor.marvel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1166326456.452791.83940@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical pursuit
>> (or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only the physical.
>> Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same goes for skiing,
>> mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf, bowling, hockey, soccer
>> .... they are all physical pursuits ... even just watching sports is OK
>> because it is related to a physical pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget
>> it; it is culturally unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!

...or standing around in the dark in the middle of winter for hours.

Date: 18 Dec 2006 00:37:40
From: Paul Neave
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Professor Marvel wrote:
> People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical pursuit
> (or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only the physical.
> Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same goes for skiing,
> mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf, bowling, hockey, soccer
> .... they are all physical pursuits ... even just watching sports is OK
> because it is related to a physical pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget
> it; it is culturally unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Anything that's not seen to
be real-world physical or to do with socialising or other people but
purely conceptual is considered 'uncool' and silly.

I think this is also why people have more of an appreciation for looking
at planets through telescopes than globular clusters because people who
aren't into astronomy 'get it' more; they can see it directly and
understand what a big lump or rock is, but a star? -- that's just a dot
in the sky, it's too obscure and uninteresting.

We find astronomy fascinating because we're more left-brained than most
people -- we've gained an intellectual understanding that allows us to
really be wowed by what we see, but for most people that's too much like
hard work and a real turn off. Not all, but a lot.

Somehow it's our job to explain what we find so amazing about astronomy
to others by appealing to their emotional, right-brained view of the
world. Hubble has been a huge benefit here.

But it goes through peeks and troughs. I remember chatting to people
about how I was "into computers" ten years ago, and the usual response
was "oh I'm useless, I can't even turn those things on ha ha!", but now
everyone uses a computer like a third hand, it is the mainstream.
Hopefully astronomy will follow one day...

>
> Professor Marvel
>
> Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>>
>> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>>
>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
>> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>> Hubble??
>

Date: 17 Dec 2006 17:55:53
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Paul Neave wrote:
> Professor Marvel wrote:
>> People think that astronomy is odd because it is a non-physical
>> pursuit (or interest) and we live in a culture that reveres only
>> the physical. Someone mentioned hunting and fishing, but the same
>> goes for skiing, mountain climbing, sky diving, tennis, golf,
>> bowling, hockey, soccer .... they are all physical pursuits ...
>> even just watching sports is OK because it is related to a physical
>> pursuit. But mental stuff? Forget it; it is culturally
>> unacceptable. It's as simple (minded) as that!
>
> I think you hit the nail on the head there. Anything that's not seen
> to be real-world physical or to do with socialising or other people
> but purely conceptual is considered 'uncool' and silly.
...
> We find astronomy fascinating because we're more left-brained than
> most people -- we've gained an intellectual understanding that allows
> us to really be wowed by what we see, but for most people that's too
> much like hard work and a real turn off. Not all, but a lot.

Well, many people don't have the patience to set up, fiddle with, and
sometimes collimate a scope, and the cost of a new scope is often
prohibitive for most people. At least I live in a relatively
well-educated town with a planetarium at the local natural history
museum, so funny looks from passersby are rarer here.

Note: Go To controls do reduce the amount of fiddling necessary to find
the pretties we all look for, so Go To just might be what makes amateur
astronomy popular again.

> Somehow it's our job to explain what we find so amazing about
> astronomy to others by appealing to their emotional, right-brained
> view of the world. Hubble has been a huge benefit here.
>
> But it goes through peeks and troughs. I remember chatting to people
> about how I was "into computers" ten years ago, and the usual
> response was "oh I'm useless, I can't even turn those things on ha
> ha!", but now everyone uses a computer like a third hand, it is the
> mainstream. Hopefully astronomy will follow one day...

>> Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
>>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming
>>> you've gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong
>>> to a cult or the libertarian party.
...
>>> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream?

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:34:02
From: Mean Mr Mustard
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Actually it has been awhile since you've regaled us with the woes of
Heliocentrism. Please enlighten the more recent browsers of this group
before they are smitten and torn away to flashier Web 2.0 sites.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:04:45
From: Curtis Croulet
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.

I don't recall ever encountering that attitude. In fact, I frequently get,
"Oh, my father (or grandfather) is into that."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

Date: 18 Dec 2006 19:13:58
From: AstroApp
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:04:45 -0800, "Curtis Croulet"
<calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net > wrote:

>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>> the libertarian party.
>
>I don't recall ever encountering that attitude. In fact, I frequently get,
>"Oh, my father (or grandfather) is into that."

Curtis, I quite agree with you. When I set up my refractor, or C-11,
in the driveway to observe something occasionally, folks in my
neighborhood who are performing their evening constitutionals often
stop and express great interest, turning to awe when they get to look
through the eyepiece at, say, Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, or the moon.

Once I even showed a bunch of punks who regularly run around the
neighborhood acting out their childish anti-social behavior what I was
looking at. This had a remarkable effect. Now, these guys all smile
and wave at me and are affable. Before they were sullen.

My next door neighbor, a sports buff and non-intellectual, was so
amazed at the sight of the transit of Mercury across the sun that he
was almost speechless. He finally gathered his thoughts and said,
"well -- I knew that there were planets. But I just didn't have any
feeling for the idea that I would ever SEE a planet, and now the idea
seems so REAL to me!"

The only strange and skeptical reaction I ever got was the day I was
taking a digital image of the transit, and running back and forth
between my computer and my (undriven) scope, to snap a shot before the
drift caused the image to wander out of the field. A utility workman
who was working in the neighborhood came up behind me out of
curiosity.

I had about two minutes to go before the Sun was behind my garage and
unviewable and did not want to waste the time chit-chatting, but get
the last possible shots. He startled me as I was trying to adjust my
little alt-az reflector. I then said, "I'm sorry - I can't stop to
talk; I'm doing something important here."

He sneered and repeated the phrase, "Something important, eh?"
with great sarcasm, and then walked off...

Aside from that, everybody else has been very much interested -- even
impressed.

AstroApp (Curtis, to you it's "AFT"!)

Date: 18 Dec 2006 22:33:44
From: David Nakamoto
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

AstroApp wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:04:45 -0800, "Curtis Croulet"
> <calypte@_NO_SPAM_adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>>> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>>> the libertarian party.
>> I don't recall ever encountering that attitude. In fact, I frequently get,
>> "Oh, my father (or grandfather) is into that."
>
> Curtis, I quite agree with you.

[snip!]

> The only strange and skeptical reaction I ever got was the day I was
> taking a digital image of the transit, and running back and forth
> between my computer and my (undriven) scope, to snap a shot before the
> drift caused the image to wander out of the field. A utility workman
> who was working in the neighborhood came up behind me out of
> curiosity.
>
> I had about two minutes to go before the Sun was behind my garage and
> unviewable and did not want to waste the time chit-chatting, but get
> the last possible shots. He startled me as I was trying to adjust my
> little alt-az reflector. I then said, "I'm sorry - I can't stop to
> talk; I'm doing something important here."
>
> He sneered and repeated the phrase, "Something important, eh?"
> with great sarcasm, and then walked off...

Well, those that aren't into a hobby as much as a person who invests
time and money into equipment and "learning the ropes", isn't going to
understand when there is something time critical that you believe is
important. I'll bet bird watchers and others who engage in nature, and
who know that timing is sometimes everything, also know about the layman
who doesn't understand and can't project it when it's his turn to be
engaged in something time critical, only to have someone else distract them.

Which should mean that we should all remember the Golden Rule and treat
others as we would like to be treated, and remember that what is
unimportant to one is important to another, so a little kindness in
every moment is important. In our hobby, this means learning the
etiquette concerning lights, disturbing someone who is engaged in
something, making sure children are not doing anything wrong, and
watching each other's backs, among others.

--- Dave N.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:26:02
From: Tom Hise
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58 -0800, "Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>the libertarian party.
>
>Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
>... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
>... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
>Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
>insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>Hubble??

Why do you think those people are "normal"?

Date: 16 Dec 2006 12:18:04
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On 15 Dec 2006 19:21:58 -0800, "Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
>gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
>the libertarian party.

I've never had that happen (and I'm both an astronomer and a Libertarian
<g >).

Quite the opposite, nearly anybody that I start talking about astronomy
with tends to be very interested (and I can tell the difference between
true interest and acting polite). Public star parties attract lots of
folks who have no astronomical background at all, and most are
fascinated.

Culturally, astronomy is "geeky", and fair game for light-hearted
ridicule in sitcoms and the like. We do live in a society at the moment
that seems to place little value on intelligent pursuits (as can be seen
at the highest levels). But individually, most people don't seem to have
a problem with astronomers at all. There is a near universal interest in
astronomy amongst everyone (even teenagers!)

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 16 Dec 2006 20:58:53
From: Florian
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

>Quite the opposite, nearly anybody that I start talking about astronomy
>with tends to be very interested (and I can tell the difference between
>true interest and acting polite).

Same here. I always post the monthly skymaps.com chart on my office door =

and sometimes i'll post other things about upcoming meteor showers or=20
favorable space station passes. People i work with are usually very=20
interested in such things and want to know more.

.Florian

Date: 16 Dec 2006 22:27:50
From: L.A.T.
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

All hobbies are silly.

Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:18:03
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

I will disagree on that. Not only am I an Astronomer, but I'm also a Model
Rocketeer, a Space Modeler, a Photographer, a gardener, and A Breeder of
Japanese Bobtail cats. I almost forgot, a Sci-Fi fan to the Nth Dregree too.

--
There are those who believe that life here, began out there, far across the
universe, with tribes of humans, who may have been the forefathers of the
Egyptians, or the Toltechs, or the Mayans. Some believe that they may yet be
brothers of man, who even now fight to survive, somewhere beyond the
heavens.

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
The Church of Eternity
http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html

"L.A.T." <tonyt92@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Gp_gh.9281$HU.6645@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> All hobbies are silly.
>

Date: 18 Dec 2006 03:17:59
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

A hobby is something you go goofy about in order to keep from going
crazy about things in general :-)

Jim

"L.A.T." <tonyt92@yahoo.com > wrote:

>
>All hobbies are silly.
>

James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net

Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121

Date: 17 Dec 2006 06:32:48
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

>
> I've never had that happen (and I'm both an astronomer and a Libertarian
> <g>).

I have always been of the persuasion that anyone that professes themself to
be
aligned with some body of hyperbole must be some kind of ass.

Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:57:04
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:32:48 GMT, "Mike" <mike@yahoo.net > wrote:

>> I've never had that happen (and I'm both an astronomer and a Libertarian
>> <g>).
>
>I have always been of the persuasion that anyone that professes themself to
>be aligned with some body of hyperbole must be some kind of ass.

You mean like Republicans? Christians?

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 17 Dec 2006 18:21:07
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:f4qao25ua4prt5traim8nkdiv8op5ni264@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:32:48 GMT, "Mike" <mike@yahoo.net> wrote:
>
>>> I've never had that happen (and I'm both an astronomer and a Libertarian
>>> <g>).
>>
>>I have always been of the persuasion that anyone that professes themself
>>to
>>be aligned with some body of hyperbole must be some kind of ass.
>
> You mean like Republicans? Christians?

Ya.

Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:13:32
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Date: 17 Dec 2006 17:03:38
From: AM
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 06:32:48 GMT, "Mike" <mike@yahoo.net> wrote:
>
>>> I've never had that happen (and I'm both an astronomer and a Libertarian
>>> <g>).
>> I have always been of the persuasion that anyone that professes themself to
>> be aligned with some body of hyperbole must be some kind of ass.
>
> You mean like Republicans? Christians?
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com

Hi.

Considering that you are one of the more
esteemed members here, I expected more from
you.

Replies like this whether against republicans,
and christians, liberals or atheists, show an
amazing lack of tolerance from a group of people
who think in their own minds that they are
free thinkers, and open minded....

We ALL should be very happy there others that think
quite differently than ourselves.
The world would be a very boring place otherwise...

--

AM

http://sctuser.home.comcast.net

Date: 17 Dec 2006 15:20:05
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:03:38 -0500, AM <sctuser@comcast.net > wrote:

>Hi.
>
>Considering that you are one of the more
>esteemed members here, I expected more from
>you.
>
>Replies like this whether against republicans,
>and christians, liberals or atheists, show an
>amazing lack of tolerance from a group of people
>who think in their own minds that they are
>free thinkers, and open minded....

Thanks for the vote of confidence <g >, but the barb was really against
Mike, just to remind him of his hypocrisy.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 17 Dec 2006 16:08:20
From: Jan Owen
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:dfgbo2h3eulegb5ap0mbptqj365qqkso8q@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:03:38 -0500, AM <sctuser@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Hi.
>>
>>Considering that you are one of the more
>>esteemed members here, I expected more from
>>you.
>>
>>Replies like this whether against republicans,
>>and christians, liberals or atheists, show an
>>amazing lack of tolerance from a group of people
>>who think in their own minds that they are
>>free thinkers, and open minded....
>
> Thanks for the vote of confidence <g>, but the barb was really against
> Mike, just to remind him of his hypocrisy.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com

I guess this does show a flaw in the killfile process...

I don't SEE Mike's posts anymore, because it's clear he's a troll...

So when you come on with a response like that, YOU look pretty bad, when
it's not in any visible context (as a result of my having killfiled Mike)...

Still, I think I can live without Mike, and make a Kentucky windage
correction for your response. At least for NOW...

Heheheh!!!

Not that what I just said should worry YOU...

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21

Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:20:10
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

If by normal you mean people who:
-Have no interest in anything but sports or gossip
-Rarely read a book or newspaper
-Have no interest in the World at large
think that is Is living, then you've answered your own question.

You might as well try to interest a pet gerbil in nuclear engineering.

You have to have an interest in science (generally of all kinds) which
leaves
out the dullards.

Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:38:52
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Jim Klein wrote:
> Maybe because they are stupid.
>

Most people are now accustomed,through excellent documentaries, to the
gorgeous way life on the planets moves in accordance with the cycles of
the day and the year,not just human existence but all existence.

Geological and climatological considerations are central to this
growing appreciation which humanity has developed for the planet and
all the facets involved however the biggest facet is missing -
Astronomy.

People are not stupid ,it is only a matter of developing their
conceptions to match the excellent images now availible,the few basic
ideas of the Western astronomers and to drop false notions which have
crept in over the centuries.Contemporary imaging,and especially the
Earth from space,now makes climatological studies an exciting pursuit
as it streamlines the components to local motions of the Earth rather
than referencing everything off the Earth's axis to the distant central
Sun.

As an engineer ,you should appreciate why using the Sun's 'altitude' in
the sky to dictate meteorological weather patterns (seasons) would
provide corrupt or childish conclusions such as the following -

http://www.brocktonpublicschools.com/schools/high/planetarium/activities/seasons/seasons8.html

It may not be helpful to present a false view sanctioned by most
people here but the other option does not appear to have gained any
attention insofar as it telescopes locally observed phenomena to
demonstrate more realistic working principles for why color change at
the radiation/orbital shadow boundary.

http://www.tech-writer.net/images/photos/SunsetSky1.jpg

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Storm_pages/humberto2001/terminator1.JPG

http://wmthemes.jessanderson.org/sht/earth_terminator_ss.jpg

Give people something more than static images by providing a clear
view of the relationship between the Earth's motions and the daily and
annual cycles and they will come back to astronomy.

> "oriel36" <geraldkelleher@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> >> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> >> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> >> the libertarian party.
> >>
> >
> >What you are into is a magnification exercise.You use a system where
> >all observed objects are pasted on to a celestial sphere which moves
> >around you in a predictable way based on 3 years of 365 days and 1 year
> >of 366 days.
> >
> >It is not a cult but it sure can't be classified as astronomy,neith the
> >ancient astronomy and its excellent time reckoning side or Western
> >astronomy based on resolving the observed motion of planets.There
> >should be a new addition to solar system astronomy in terms of
> >structure and motion but the 'geeks' l;apse back into celestial sphere
> >geometry making even solar system astronomy impossible.
> >
> >
> >> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> >> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> >> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
> >>
> >
> >Show them Jupiter and Saturn in motion over the course of a year and
> >the faster Earth overtaking them and you will soon forget the
> >convenience of the Ra/Dec system -
> >
> >http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif
> >
> >You are using a different type of intelligence when affirming how
> >planetary motions around the Sun are seen from an orbitally moving
> >Earth and that is astronomy !.
> >
> >
> >> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> >> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> >> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> >> Hubble??
> >
> >Use modern imaging for all it is worth to promote the great cycles
> >which make existence possible.The motions of Mercury overtaking the
> >Earth a few weeks ago,the shadow of Io and how the Earth's and
> >Jupiter's orbital motion condition which side the shadow exists to the
> >left or right of Io,the maximum deviation of the global orbital shadow
> >to fixed axiaol orientation coming up in a few days and lots of other
> >ways to promote intuitive astronomy.
> >
> >Astronomy is a sleeping giant,it is made that way by people who aim too
> >low or pretensious people who make the celestial arena a playground
> >for every exotic notion that pops into their heads.
> >
> >Why not try to work with Io's shadow in affirming the orbital motion of
> >Jupiter and Earth around the Sun -
> >
> >http://faculty.rmwc.edu/tmichalik/images/jupmoons4.jpg
> >
> >http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9904/ioshadowc_hst_big.jpg
> >
> >It is a great way to appreciate the changing orbital orientation of the
> >Earth and it is intricate enough to appeal to your intelligence.
>
> James E. Klein
> jameseklein@earthlink.net
>
> Engineering Calculations
> http://www.ecalculations.com
> ecalculations@ecalculations.com
> Engineering Calculations is the home of
> the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
> for Windows.
> 1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
> 1-818-823-4121

Date: 17 Dec 2006 06:29:57
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mike wrote:
> "Professor Marvel" <professor.marvel@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1166328269.779064.76590@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >A follow-up to my own posting a moment ago .......
> >
> > Do you ever remember a kid being ridiculed because (s)he excelled in
> > math and/or science? Teasing was not uncommon for "brains" when I
> > went to school. On the other hand, how many kids were teased or
> > ridiculed because they excelled in football or basketball? It's been
> > a while since I was in school but the culture has not changed, and the
> > kids have only gotten older.
>
>
> I really don't think people care one way or the other as long as you can at
> least
> make them....look up..look wayyy up.

Probably the greatest difference between a celestial sphere observer
and an astronomer is that the former 'looks up' at the celestial sphere
canopy while the latter looks into the celestial arena and makes
judgements on solar system structure and motion by recognising how our
planetary motions affect and dictate what we see.

The preponderance of celestial sphere observers or the lack of
astronomers is due to the intellectual and intutive inability to
seperate the observational convenience of the Ra/Dec system from the
basic tenets which seperate the Earth's axial and orbital motions.The
calendrically based observational convenience is fine as long as it
does not shortcircuit the working methods of astronomers based on
keeping axial and orbital motions seperate however homogenising axial
and orbital motion by justifying the return of a star in 23 hours 56
minutes 04 seconds is lethal to all things valued by Western astronomy.

Here is what you see and use as a basis for the Earth's motions -

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051220.html

Here is what it looks like geometrically -

http://www.opencourse.info/astronomy/introduction/02.motion_stars_sun/celestial_sphere_anim.gif

Using modern imaging and a healthy view of what the original Western
astronomers did rather than relying on the later catastrophic shortcuts
of those 17th century numbskulls,astronomy will appear in a new light
to humanity who badly needs to get away from the exotic novelties of
the last century.

People who are engrossed in astronomy have little time to think what
others think of them or indeed bother to consider their status in the
first place.As most here have the idea that astronomy is based on a
magnification exercise and although using telescopes is a perfectly
admirable facet of observational astronomy ,magnification alone means
very little, no more than looking through a microscope means little
beyond providing excellent static images.

I am genuinely surprised that the spectacular reasoning of the ancient
timekeepers in creating the seperate 24 hour equable day system and
its calendrical extension and how Western astronomers reworked it to
correlate clocks with axial rotation receives no acknowledgement here
although I know the 'sidereal' reasons why.

Astronomy is not a hobby,everybody's life depends on the great cycles
of axial and orbital motions occuring in the solar radiation provided
by our central star.Those who are not astronomers are likely to ignore
the local motions of the Earth and appeal to celestial sphere geometry
to justify the motions of the Earth.It would really be wonderful if
those who are engaged in observational astronomy turned away from the
celestial sphere notions and join the great Western astronomical
tradition which seperates the Earth's axial and orbital motions for
different purposes.

Date: 18 Dec 2006 06:13:09
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1166239318.653875.82110@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> the libertarian party.
>
> Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
>
> Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??
\

Masturbation is a hobby amongst the normal members of society. Is it not?

Date: 18 Dec 2006 17:08:40
From: Ernie Dunbar
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mike wrote:
> "Mean Mr Mustard" <macusr023@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1166239318.653875.82110@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Telling someone you're into astronomy is akin to proclaiming you've
> > gone insane. They look at you strangely as if you belong to a cult or
> > the libertarian party.
> >
> > Show them Saturn through the telescope and they exclaim "Cool!"
> > ... show them Jupiter and they humor you with a "neat"
> > ... show them M31 and they groan "huh"
> >
> > Why is this hobby considered so odd to the mainstream? Maybe we ARE
> > insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> > our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> > Hubble??
> \
>
> Masturbation is a hobby amongst the normal members of society. Is it not?

So? What's wrong with that?

Date: 18 Dec 2006 16:47:19
From: Ernie Dunbar
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Jim Klein wrote:
> I majored in Astronomy at UCLA in the 60's. You would be surprised to
> know how many people asked my mom if I would do their horoscopes for
> them including my dad's mother. :-)

You're clearly missing out on some supplementary income there. ;)

> The advantage of Astrology over Astronomy is the extremely reasonable
> price of the tools needed to predict the future compared with the
> telescopes and CCD cameras needed for Astronomy. :-)

Exploit other people's bad habits to fund your own! :)

Date: 18 Dec 2006 22:05:59
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Ernie Dunbar wrote:
> Jim Klein wrote:
>> I majored in Astronomy at UCLA in the 60's. You would be surprised to
>> know how many people asked my mom if I would do their horoscopes for
>> them including my dad's mother. :-)
>
> You're clearly missing out on some supplementary income there. ;)
>
>> The advantage of Astrology over Astronomy is the extremely reasonable
>> price of the tools needed to predict the future compared with the
>> telescopes and CCD cameras needed for Astronomy. :-)
>
> Exploit other people's bad habits to fund your own! :)

IIRC there's software available that will create and draw a chart for
any birth date and time. If you run it the suckers will come. I have no
idea whether future charts will include Pluto and Eris. ;^)

Probably WAY more money in astrology than astronomy, but you have to
live with yourself.

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 18 Dec 2006 16:43:19
From: Ernie Dunbar
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
> Maybe we ARE
> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
> Hubble??

I do it because it gives me context.

When you see a picture of the Orion Nebula fresh out of Hubble, you
don't know where in the sky it is, what time of year you can see it,
how big it is in comparison to anything else you can see in the sky.
You don't comprehend the difficulty to getting such pictures, You don't
understand how much of a big deal it is that we spent 2 billion dollars
putting a telescope into orbit in the first place just to take pretty
pictures. You don't know what narrowband filters do, or what they look
like. You don't care whether or not we're wasting massive amounts of
electricity by pointing streetlights at the sky (and thus the need to
have Hubble in space in the first place).

That and it's fun finding these objects myself.

Date: 20 Dec 2006 22:59:07
From: Trane Francks
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On 2006-12-19 09:43 +0900, Ernie Dunbar wrote:
> Mean Mr Mustard wrote:

>> insane. Why bother with standing in the cold to view faint fuzzies in
>> our eyepieces when we have the glorious images images from Keck and
>> Hubble??
>
> I do it because it gives me context.

I do it because it somehow seems more real than looking at photos.
There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
scope and seeing that I can make out. It'll never bee Hubble, but, hey,
that really isn't the goal.

trane
--
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Trane Francks trane@gol.com Tokyo, Japan
// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

Date: 20 Dec 2006 16:23:35
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
> scope

Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.

Date: 20 Dec 2006 17:29:23
From: David Nakamoto
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mike wrote:
>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>> scope
>
> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.

Just signs of aperture fever. We all get it sooner or later. Some
recover, some don't. (^_^)

--- Dave

Date: 20 Dec 2006 10:28:12
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mike wrote:
>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>> scope
>
> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.

Agreed. I can see plenty with a 4 1/2" Newtonian scope. If Mike's scope
is a reflector of some kind, he needs to collimate.

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 20 Dec 2006 15:49:54
From: Dennis Woos
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

> Mike wrote:
>>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>>> scope
>>
>> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.
>
> Agreed. I can see plenty with a 4 1/2" Newtonian scope. If Mike's scope is
> a reflector of some kind, he needs to collimate.
>

Or maybe it is, quite literally, a lousy 4" scope?!

Dennis

Date: 20 Dec 2006 14:02:49
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Dennis Woos wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>>>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>>>> scope
>>>
>>> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.
>>
>> Agreed. I can see plenty with a 4 1/2" Newtonian scope. If Mike's scope is
>> a reflector of some kind, he needs to collimate.
>>
>
> Or maybe it is, quite literally, a lousy 4" scope?!

So--either he delouses it or he tries collimating the scope.

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 20 Dec 2006 21:22:17
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Pat O'Connell" <gypkap@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:5vadnVqSQuNmORTYnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@comcast.com...
> Dennis Woos wrote:
>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>>>>> scope
>>>>
>>>> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.
>>>
>>> Agreed. I can see plenty with a 4 1/2" Newtonian scope. If Mike's scope
>>> is a reflector of some kind, he needs to collimate.
>>>
>>
>> Or maybe it is, quite literally, a lousy 4" scope?!
>
> So--either he delouses it or he tries collimating the scope.

You're out to lunch. I didn't say that. Go look at Trane Francks post you
idiot.

Date: 20 Dec 2006 14:44:45
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Mike wrote:
> "Pat O'Connell" <gypkap@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:5vadnVqSQuNmORTYnZ2dnUVZ_q7inZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Dennis Woos wrote:
>>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>>>>>> scope
>>>>>
>>>>> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I can see plenty with a 4 1/2" Newtonian scope. If Mike's scope
>>>> is a reflector of some kind, he needs to collimate.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or maybe it is, quite literally, a lousy 4" scope?!
>>
>> So--either he delouses it or he tries collimating the scope.
>
>
> You're out to lunch. I didn't say that. Go look at Trane Francks post

Mr. Francks post is about why one looks at faint fuzzies, planets, etc.
with one's own imperfect scope rather than looking at Hubble photos.
Chances are that his "lousy" scope isn't all that bad, but he may need
to work on it a bit. My 4 1/2" scope's collimated right now, but if I
noticed it being out of collimation or that there was some other problem
(mine is out of warranty) I would fix it up instead of saying my scope
is lousy. So far, the only thing I've had to do to my scope is replace
the red dot finder, and buy a few eyepieces.

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 20 Dec 2006 16:13:04
From: Marty
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

I feel like I'm feeding a troll, but...
Obviously, no one will see as much in an amateur scope as he will
in photographs taken with the best professional scopes ever built on the
best nights. If your goal is simply to see what various astronomical
objects look like, look at Hubble images or other professional research
images in magazines, books, or the internet.
Still, there's something wonderful about going out under the night
sky, finding an object, SEEING it for real, and having ancient photons
from that very object rattle down through your scope and strike your
retina.
If you cant appreciate the "photon connection," sell your scope and
enjoy all the wonderful photographs. To each his own.
Marty

Date: 20 Dec 2006 23:15:05
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:13:04 -0600, movac5@webtv.net (Marty) wrote:

>If you cant appreciate the "photon connection," sell your scope and
>enjoy all the wonderful photographs. To each his own.

Indeed. But for many of us the primary joy is collecting our own photons
and making our own images. That's a valid use of any scope, and there's
no need to sell it just because we aren't visual astronomers.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 20 Dec 2006 19:10:57
From: Marty
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Chris Peterson was saying
>Indeed. But for many of us the primary
> joy is collecting our own photons and
> making our own images. That's a valid
> use of any scope, and there's no need to
> sell it just because we aren't visual
> astronomers.

I agree totally. I had no intention of implying that visual astronomy
was somehow superior to photographic. I was merely addressing the issue
of why one would bother with "amateur" stuff when Hubble pictures are so
readily available. Being a simple stargazer myself, I approached the
issue from that perspective.
Marty

Date: 20 Dec 2006 16:06:18
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Marty wrote:
> I feel like I'm feeding a troll, but...
> Obviously, no one will see as much in an amateur scope as he will
> in photographs taken with the best professional scopes ever built on the
> best nights. If your goal is simply to see what various astronomical
> objects look like, look at Hubble images or other professional research
> images in magazines, books, or the internet.

Hubbles and Kecks don't show us what faint fuzzies look like. We live
within a giant faint fuzzy 100,000 light years across. And yet, from my
suburban backyard, I can barely see it on moonless nights. The more
authentic rendering of M1, the Sombrero or the Veil is through your
eyepiece.

> Still, there's something wonderful about going out under the night
> sky, finding an object, SEEING it for real, and having ancient photons
> from that very object rattle down through your scope and strike your
> retina.
> If you cant appreciate the "photon connection," sell your scope and
> enjoy all the wonderful photographs. To each his own.

Isn't the gist of your "photon connection" essentially what got this
thread going? ;-)

Shawn

Date: 20 Dec 2006 19:38:11
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

"Pat O'Connell" <gypkap@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:c5ednQs9IsMt7xTYnZ2dnUVZ_ozinZ2d@comcast.com...
> Mike wrote:
>>> There's both joy and frustration in looking at something in a lousy 4"
>>> scope
>>
>> Lousy 4" ??? heh? You need help buddy.
>

If you read properly you'd see I didn't say that..Trane Francs did. It was
my response to
him.

Date: 18 Dec 2006 13:57:54
From: Ernie Dunbar
Subject: Re: Why do "normal" people find this hobby silly?

Peter Lynch wrote:

> Two words: normative pressure.
> People don't like being separated from the herd. So while most
> individuals spend their free time slumped in front of the TV
> others, with hobbies, are out there doing things that they enjoy.
>
> You find that pretty much any hobby gets a similar reaction. It
> identifies you as being apart from the "normal" range of social
> activities.

Actually, no. There's a lot of hobbies that are well accepted by
civilians.

Pretty much any sport, if you're a participant or a spectator. If
someone asked you what you do in your spare time and you told them you
play soccer, they won't look at you funny. It might even make you some
friends.

Electronic gaming - ie on a computer or Playstation - is a pretty
normal hobby for Generation X and later.

Building scale models ain't what it used to be, but there's still way
more hobby shops that specialize in this than there are telescope
shops.

Cooking is a hobby for some people too. Same goes with baking.

Music is also a big deal. Tell someone you're in a rock band, and
you're instantly cool. Tell someone you're in a baroque string quartet
though, maybe not so much.

But astronomy isn't a mainstream hobby, and I think that's the
difference.

So while I agree that normative pressure is certainly a factor, I
disagree that "just about any hobby" is weird.

Another factor is the fact that most people think science is generally
something that is hard and not a lot of fun. Tell someone that you like
Chemistry as a hobby. Or Biology. This likely drags out memories of
classes that "had to be taken" in school, or the "Science is Fun!"
geeks that tried unsuccessfully to turn people on to science when they
were children.