S&T's web site

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Date: 04 Aug 2006 07:43:49
From: Starlord
Subject: S&T's web site

How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

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Date: 04 Aug 2006 16:35:55
From: Ed Holden
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote:

> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.

I had the same thought myself. I clicked on my http://skyandtelescope.com/news/
favorite link and it took me to http://skytonight.com/news . Since I don't load
images, it took a while to figure out it must be good ol' S&T after all...

I find that the ads are a little more instrusive than the old design, and the pages
are wider than I would like on 800x600. The sans-serif text is easier to read
than the serif text, but it looks cheap and tacky.

Date: 04 Aug 2006 13:32:21
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Ed Holden wrote:

> Since I don't load images, it took a while to figure out it must be good ol' S&T after all...
>
> I find that the ads are a little more instrusive than the old design, and the
> pages are wider than I would like on 800x600.

Help me understand. You don't load images. And you have an 800x600
display. Let me guess: Osborne I. That was my first PC in 1981, I
think, and, of course, I loved it -- in its day.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 20:05:55
From: Ed Holden
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Davoud wrote:

> Help me understand. You don't load images. And you have an 800x600
> display. Let me guess: Osborne I. That was my first PC in 1981, I think,
> and, of course, I loved it -- in its day.

I live in a rural area too far from the central office to receive any kind
of DSL service, so I use a satellite-based internet service. I get 4 Mbps
which beats the heck out of the dial-up service I used to receive at
23,000 bps (and that was on a good day!) a few months ago. However, since
the data transfer costs $$$ per MB, I only load images that I actually
want to see.

As for 800x600, I spend most of my time on nasa.gov websites
(e.g. Cassini, MER et al) and they are all based on a NASA template
designed for 800x600. I do most of my web-surfing on a G4 Cube - it has
one 17" CRT attached. I also have a G5 with three monitors attached,
including a 30" Apple Cinema Display. The 17" CRT allows me to easily
view small fonts and view the websites in full-screen mode without any
other screen clutter. As amazing as the 30" ACD is, the 17" CRT blows it
away for this particular application. For everything else, the ACD is
king. It sure would be nice to have websites designed for the ACD, but I
can't see that happening until the majority are using such high
resolutions.

Date: 04 Aug 2006 20:42:23
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Davoud:
> > Help me understand. You don't load images. And you have an 800x600
> > display. Let me guess: Osborne I. That was my first PC in 1981, I think,
> > and, of course, I loved it -- in its day.

Ed Holden:
> I live in a rural area too far from the central office to receive any kind
> of DSL service, so I use a satellite-based internet service. I get 4 Mbps
> which beats the heck out of the dial-up service I used to receive at
> 23,000 bps (and that was on a good day!) a few months ago. However, since
> the data transfer costs $$$ per MB, I only load images that I actually
> want to see.
>
> As for 800x600, I spend most of my time on nasa.gov websites
> (e.g. Cassini, MER et al) and they are all based on a NASA template
> designed for 800x600. I do most of my web-surfing on a G4 Cube - it has
> one 17" CRT attached. I also have a G5 with three monitors attached,
> including a 30" Apple Cinema Display. The 17" CRT allows me to easily
> view small fonts and view the websites in full-screen mode without any
> other screen clutter. As amazing as the 30" ACD is, the 17" CRT blows it
> away for this particular application. For everything else, the ACD is
> king. It sure would be nice to have websites designed for the ACD, but I
> can't see that happening until the majority are using such high
> resolutions.

Consider me both informed and chastened.

I also have a 30" Cinema Display on a Dual G5 (one of my nine Macs).
Unbeatable! My wife has an older 23" and a 17"on her own Dual G5. When
I get my Mactel workstation I'm going to have /two/ 30" CD's on it --
the better to surf six web pages side-by-side and especially the better
to handle all of those tools in Final Cut Studio!

Thanks,

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

Date: 14 Aug 2006 10:40:36
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Davoud wrote:
> Ed Holden wrote:
>
>
>>Since I don't load images, it took a while to figure out it must be good ol' S&T after all...
>>
>>I find that the ads are a little more instrusive than the old design, and the
>>pages are wider than I would like on 800x600.
>
>
> Help me understand. You don't load images. And you have an 800x600
> display. Let me guess: Osborne I. That was my first PC in 1981, I
> think, and, of course, I loved it -- in its day.

What an arrogant response. I have an ancient small laptop where I do
most of my web browsing, 800x600 is it's native resolution. My brother
has one old computer for his family and it can't do more than 800x600.
Excluding the older PCs and Macs there are devices other than desktops
and laptops that people use to browse the web.

Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Date: 14 Aug 2006 16:58:32
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Ed Holden wrote:
> >>...

Davoud replied:
> > ...

G.T.
> What an arrogant response.

What a stupid response -- 10 days later. Did you read the /entire/
thread?

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 09:48:05
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Ed Holden wrote:
> I find that the ads are a little more instrusive than the old design,
> and the pages are wider than I would like on 800x600. The sans-serif
> text is easier to read than the serif text, but it looks cheap and tacky.

Yeah, I was a little taken aback, too. The ads are a little more
intrusive; they look a lot more intrusive at first, because they're more
top-loaded than they were before. As you scroll down the page, it gets
a bit less busy. So it's not so great at 1024x768, either. This page
benefits from larger displays.

As far as the fonts go, it's true that sans-serif fonts are generally
display fonts, not book fonts, so that many people find *serif* fonts
easier to read, not the sans-serif fonts. That being said, I don't
think the difference is that great, and in any event, you can always
change the fonts your browser uses to display the page.

--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:23:47
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

----- Original Message -----
From: "Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info >
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: S&T's web site

> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it?
> I was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
>
What browser are you using. Could you be overriding the
website's style sheets? If you're using IE6 uncheck all the
override check boxes in the Accessibility dialog. If you're
a Firefoxist check the Allow pages to choose ... in the
Fonts dialog.

Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.ht

Date: 04 Aug 2006 09:20:20
From: Pat O'Connell
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
>

The new site will probably tick off experienced observers and confuse
newbies.

--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:25:45
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Date: 04 Aug 2006 18:38:24
From: Alson Wong
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote in message
news:n7WdnaPzL45pw07ZnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@inreach.com...
> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it?
> I was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.

I'll probably get used to it, but one thing that has less functionality is
the Almanac feature. Previously, you could enter in any city with a US ZIP
code and it would generate coordinates. Now, you are limited to a select
list of cities. I tried manually entering in the longitude and latitude but
it would reset to the previously selected city from the list.

Date: 04 Aug 2006 21:20:48
From: Len Philpot
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 18:38:24 -0700, Alson Wong wrote:

> I'll probably get used to it, but one thing that has less functionality is
> the Almanac feature. Previously, you could enter in any city with a US ZIP
> code and it would generate coordinates. Now, you are limited to a select
> list of cities. I tried manually entering in the longitude and latitude but
> it would reset to the previously selected city from the list.

Not only that, but the list is pretty small. The closest I could get was
about 120 miles from home.

All in all, the new site isn't too bad, although the in-your-face ad(s)
gets old. Even the non-advertising content links often look like ads at
first glance. I don't feel like I have too much to lose, since I never
relied on their site in the past.

I guess simplicity and clarity will eventually lose out to flash and
dash every time, eh? Kinda like software in general: Who needs
functionality when you can have entertainment instead? :-)
--

---- Len Philpot -------- l e n @ p h i l p o t . o r g (no spaces)
------- ><> ------------- http://members.cox.net/lenphilpot/

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:09:23
From: Florian
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

>I'll probably get used to it, but one thing that has less functionality =
is=20
>the Almanac feature. Previously, you could enter in any city with a US =
ZIP=20
>code and it would generate coordinates. Now, you are limited to a =
select=20
>list of cities. I tried manually entering in the longitude and latitude =
but=20
>it would reset to the previously selected city from the list.=20

Yeah, i just realized this. Can't enter my location.=20

-Florian

Date: 05 Aug 2006 00:14:58
From: Florian
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Even though i didn't use it much i sort of miss the bar that showed =
sun/moon/time data for my location. Otherwise i seem to be able to find =
things quicker with the new site. Works okay for me.

-Florian

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:37:07
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Florian" <star6@TheDesertSon.com > wrote in message
news:6qRAg.10266$Ta6.4145@tornado.socal.rr.com...
Even though i didn't use it much i sort of miss the bar that showed
sun/moon/time data for my location. Otherwise i seem to be able to find
things quicker with the new site. Works okay for me.

-Florian

That was the one thing I couldn't find. Of course this means that if it is
truly dropped then I don't have to change my settings every six months for
that feature to be up to date.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 00:22:08
From: Florian
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

>Even though i didn't use it much i sort of miss the bar that showed=20
>sun/moon/time data for my location.

Ah, the almanac is still available as a popup window...

http://skytonight.com/observing/objects/javascript/3305541.html

-Florian

Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:29:51
From:
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

> The sans-serif text is easier to read
> than the serif text, but it looks cheap and tacky.

Much like the magazine itself for the last fifteen years.

Date: 04 Aug 2006 14:16:34
From: canopus56
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> That site would be and has become useless to older machines. While this one
> does use that crappy javascripting, I know a lot of people [that] . . . do NOT use
> java or have java support.

You are saying you want the site to detect your browser type and then
redirect to a text only version. The site does not appear to have that
feature or the usual text only "site map" page. That used to be
standard practice in website design in order to allow disabled persons
access to net materials. With handicapable accessibilty features
migrating the Windows desktop environment, it seems fewer sites use the
older text only option. - Canopus56

Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:39:46
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

My old Atari TT030 doesn't need just text, it has graphics too, BUT there is
ZERO Java support for the WHOLE line of Atari 15/32 bit computers. This
means that if a site uses java / javascript the machine will crash. The old
S&T page had one popup ad which my blocker stopped anyway so I never saw it.
I noticed they've used a gray color for the text for the sidebar menus.

As I said, right now, I don't care for the new one and it makes me wonder if
they are going to change the magazines name too.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
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http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
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Blast Off Online Gift Shop
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Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"canopus56" <canopus56@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1154726194.326000.287330@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Starlord wrote:
>> That site would be and has become useless to older machines. While this
>> one
>> does use that crappy javascripting, I know a lot of people [that] . . .
>> do NOT use
>> java or have java support.
>
> You are saying you want the site to detect your browser type and then
> redirect to a text only version. The site does not appear to have that
> feature or the usual text only "site map" page. That used to be
> standard practice in website design in order to allow disabled persons
> access to net materials. With handicapable accessibilty features
> migrating the Windows desktop environment, it seems fewer sites use the
> older text only option. - Canopus56
>

Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:42:33
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Ernie Dunbar wrote:
> Starlord wrote:
> > How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> > was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
> >
>
> I think that fire will rain down from the sky, locusts will consume the
> populace, and plague will eat our crops as a result of this change.
>
> Maybe it's because I'm younger than most in this group, or because I'm
> Canadian, but change happens. All the time. There's nothing wrong with
> that. And life still goes on.

Thank you for affirming what the future of this forum will look like.

Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:33:19
From: Ernie Dunbar
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
>

I think that fire will rain down from the sky, locusts will consume the
populace, and plague will eat our crops as a result of this change.

Maybe it's because I'm younger than most in this group, or because I'm
Canadian, but change happens. All the time. There's nothing wrong with
that. And life still goes on.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 00:57:04
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> > How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> > was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.

Ernie Dunbar wrote:
> I think that fire will rain down from the sky, locusts will consume the
> populace, and plague will eat our crops as a result of this change.
>
> Maybe it's because I'm younger than most in this group, or because I'm
> Canadian, but change happens. All the time. There's nothing wrong with
> that. And life still goes on.

The average user of this web site -- especially we oldsters (62 here)
are tech savvy and are hardly resistant to change. We have learned to
use computers, we learn new tricks in astronomy and other fields of
interest to us.

The question is, why change for the sake of change? When I worked in
government, desk jockeys would come into the field and announce that We
Needed to Change the Way We Do Things (things that they had never
done.) The only reason we did things the way we did, they said, was
because We Had Always Done Things That Way.

"Wrong!" I said. "We do this in this way because this way works well
and because everyone understands it. If we change the way we do this it
will be because one of /us/ has found a better way. That's how we came
to do this this way in the first place."

Applying that to the former S&T site, I wonder if there was an outcry
from the readership for change (and I wasn't let in on it) and, above
all, for a change from skyandtelescope.com to uh, whatever it is now.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

Date: 08 Aug 2006 12:43:31
From: Paul Schlyter
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

In article <050820060057045094%star@sky.net >, Davoud <star@sky.com> wrote:

> Starlord wrote:
>>> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
>>> was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
>
> Ernie Dunbar wrote:
>> I think that fire will rain down from the sky, locusts will consume the
>> populace, and plague will eat our crops as a result of this change.
>>
>> Maybe it's because I'm younger than most in this group, or because I'm
>> Canadian, but change happens. All the time. There's nothing wrong with
>> that. And life still goes on.
>
> The average user of this web site -- especially we oldsters (62 here)
> are tech savvy and are hardly resistant to change. We have learned to
> use computers, we learn new tricks in astronomy and other fields of
> interest to us.
>
> The question is, why change for the sake of change? When I worked in
> government, desk jockeys would come into the field and announce that We
> Needed to Change the Way We Do Things (things that they had never
> done.) The only reason we did things the way we did, they said, was
> because We Had Always Done Things That Way.
>
> "Wrong!" I said. "We do this in this way because this way works well
> and because everyone understands it. If we change the way we do this it
> will be because one of /us/ has found a better way. That's how we came
> to do this this way in the first place."

There are usually two reasons to change for the sake of change - none
of them is to get things done in a better way. The two reasons are:

1. A new boss wants to appear creative. So he changes a lot of things
-- usually quoting something from some "economic guru" currently in
vogue as the reason for the change. Everything will be soooo much
better after the change..... however, the expected improvements
rarely materialise, so therefore another change will probably be
deemed necessary within a few years, or sooner. The reasons for the
"need" of change are much the same of course.

2. To get attention in the media. Something which changes is
considered interesting by the media; something which remains the same
decade after decade is considered uninteresting (unless it remains
unchanged for so long it can be cosidered camp, vintage or something
similar).

> Applying that to the former S&T site, I wonder if there was an outcry
> from the readership for change (and I wasn't let in on it) and,

Of course there wasn't.... if it was, it would have been easily
noticed here in s.a.a., or in the "Letters from the readers" column in
S&T.

In this case the reason is probably competition perceived by Sky
Publishing Corporation. Maybe they're right --- maybe not --- it's
so much guesswork involved there.

> above
> all, for a change from skyandtelescope.com to uh, whatever it is now.
>
> Davoud
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:27:04
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"A black hole now zipping through Ursa Major might have been dropkicked
out of the galactic disk by an asymmetrical supernova, astronomers
reported in the June 10th Astrophysical Journal. "

http://skytonight.com/news/3422541.html

Funny,funny,funny.

At least Newton was insincere and funny but you lot are just plain
silly.

A little bit of celestial sphere observing,a little theoretical junk
and everyone seems happy.In the background is the major effort that
goes on unoticed -the attempt to understand global warming with not the
slightest trace that astronomy and its working principles have any
input.

God help humanity through this dark era dominated by simpletons.

Starlord wrote:
> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it? I
> was on it yesterday and at first was wondering who had hijacked it.
>
>
> --
> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
>
> Telescope Buyers FAQ
> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
> Sidewalk Astronomy
> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
> In Garden Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
> Astro Blog
> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

Date: 04 Aug 2006 12:01:34
From: canopus56
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it?

Other than it was apparently unannounced (or I missed the
announcement), the revised display is much more logically organized to
respond to newbie interests. I like how they have organized all the
online calculators into one easy online link:

http://skytonight.com/observing/objects/javascript

The S&T weekly calendar of events, "This weeks sky at a glance" with
associated articles is also easy to locate.

http://skytonight.com/observing/ataglance

The useful article archive was more difficult to find. After hunting
on the left vertical menubar for a while, I eventually found the "S&T
Archives" link at the top horizontal menubar and the "Magazine Archive"
on the left-menubar.

The only downside that I see is S&T continues its hypermarketing
strategy to milk every last penny out of old content by reselling the
same articles over and over again. The thing I use the S&T site for
was to find and read old articles. About a year or two ago, S&T
divided their content in fee and free based.

The new interface changes prior practices somewhat. You can search a
full title and author index going back to 1941, and the search engine
appears to be doing full text article body searching. Very cool and
helpful. You can read a text only excerpt for free.

All past S&T articles can be viewed only by purchasing a supplemental
online annual account at $20 per year or $4.00 an article. I am not
sure whether this is in addition to your annual subscription price to
the hardcopy mag of $43. This brings the annual S&T package to $63 per
year.

Noticeably, S&T does not donate full images of dated articles, let's
say everything before 1990, to NASA/ADS for free historical
redistribution.

The new site contains several other internet-marketer design elements
that attempt to disaggregate the online audience to the S&T site and
draw them away from free non-commercial feeds like s.a.a.

In short, I like the design of the reorganized site. It's logically
designed with an access preference order of news, observing, how to
guides, and community events.

- Canopus56

Date: 04 Aug 2006 13:54:00
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

That site would be and has become useless to older machines. While this one
does use that crappy javascripting, I know a lot of people who use machines
like my old Atari TT030 or 1040ST;s and javascripts do nothing but crash
them as they do NOT use java or have java support.

Their ads are bigger now too. Right off hand, I don't care for the change at
all. It's far from being KISS.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"canopus56" <canopus56@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1154718094.148763.167110@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Starlord wrote:
>> How many have seen the change in S&T's web site? What do you think of it?
>
> Other than it was apparently unannounced (or I missed the
> announcement), the revised display is much more logically organized to
> respond to newbie interests. I like how they have organized all the
> online calculators into one easy online link:
>
> http://skytonight.com/observing/objects/javascript
>
> The S&T weekly calendar of events, "This weeks sky at a glance" with
> associated articles is also easy to locate.
>
> http://skytonight.com/observing/ataglance
>
> The useful article archive was more difficult to find. After hunting
> on the left vertical menubar for a while, I eventually found the "S&T
> Archives" link at the top horizontal menubar and the "Magazine Archive"
> on the left-menubar.
>
> The only downside that I see is S&T continues its hypermarketing
> strategy to milk every last penny out of old content by reselling the
> same articles over and over again. The thing I use the S&T site for
> was to find and read old articles. About a year or two ago, S&T
> divided their content in fee and free based.
>
> The new interface changes prior practices somewhat. You can search a
> full title and author index going back to 1941, and the search engine
> appears to be doing full text article body searching. Very cool and
> helpful. You can read a text only excerpt for free.
>
> All past S&T articles can be viewed only by purchasing a supplemental
> online annual account at $20 per year or $4.00 an article. I am not
> sure whether this is in addition to your annual subscription price to
> the hardcopy mag of $43. This brings the annual S&T package to $63 per
> year.
>
> Noticeably, S&T does not donate full images of dated articles, let's
> say everything before 1990, to NASA/ADS for free historical
> redistribution.
>
> The new site contains several other internet-marketer design elements
> that attempt to disaggregate the online audience to the S&T site and
> draw them away from free non-commercial feeds like s.a.a.
>
> In short, I like the design of the reorganized site. It's logically
> designed with an access preference order of news, observing, how to
> guides, and community events.
>
> - Canopus56
>

Date: 04 Aug 2006 22:38:45
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote in message
news:OvadnX327qfeKE7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@inreach.com...
> That site would be and has become useless to older machines. While this
> one does use that crappy javascripting, I know a lot of people who use
> machines like my old Atari TT030 or 1040ST;s and javascripts do nothing
> but crash them as they do NOT use java or have java support.

Javascript is NOT Java. Java is a fully
object oriented programming language that is
compiled into machine byte codes and which
runs inside of an OS extension called a Java
virual machine. Javascript runs inside of
a browser or server, is not object oriented
and is not compiled into Java byte codes. Equating
Java to Javascript is like equating GWBasic to
C++.

--
Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

Date: 04 Aug 2006 15:46:17
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it used
to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any java or
javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's one reason I
take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow Atari users.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
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Blast Off Online Gift Shop
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Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Rick Evans" <dontspamme@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:V%PAg.27$QK.13@trndny06...
> "Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote in message
> news:OvadnX327qfeKE7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@inreach.com...
>> That site would be and has become useless to older machines. While this
>> one does use that crappy javascripting, I know a lot of people who use
>> machines like my old Atari TT030 or 1040ST;s and javascripts do nothing
>> but crash them as they do NOT use java or have java support.
>
> Javascript is NOT Java. Java is a fully
> object oriented programming language that is
> compiled into machine byte codes and which
> runs inside of an OS extension called a Java
> virual machine. Javascript runs inside of
> a browser or server, is not object oriented
> and is not compiled into Java byte codes. Equating
> Java to Javascript is like equating GWBasic to
> C++.
>
> --
> Hilton Evans
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lat +42° 11' 07"
> Lon -71° 04' 35"
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.chempensoftware.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
>

Date: 05 Aug 2006 00:27:05
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:
> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it used
> to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any java or
> javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's one reason I
> take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow Atari users.
>
>
Dennis,

It's not a function of the javascript that does this to the Atari. Its
the lack of javascipt support in the browser that runs on top of the
underying OS. It doesn't play well with stuff that it doesn't support.

Might there not be a possibility that someone has coded a browser for
the Atair that has Javascript support ? (Yeah ... a long shot. Almost as
bad as wanting browser support for a Commodore 64 :( )

Bill

--

William R. Mattil : http://www.celestial-images.com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 17:46:06
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

There was one being worked on that was "suppost" to have somekind of
javascript support, but without so much as a "oh it's to hard" the outfit
just up and disaperred. So the One broswer that can and is still used,
doesn't support java anything.

I don't know, but it seems to be that no one likes writing in 'C' or michine
code anymore.

As for C-64's, I still remember the very graphic fill program for the Atari
XL/XE's that showed a Big and Long Saturn 5 lauching and coming down on a
commiedoor 64, blowing it to bits and then saying ...

1 Down, 100,000 more to go.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
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"William R. Mattil" <wrmattil@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:tBRAg.2320$FN2.610@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Starlord wrote:
>> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
>> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it
>> used to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any
>> java or javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's
>> one reason I take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow
>> Atari users.
>>
>>
> Dennis,
>
> It's not a function of the javascript that does this to the Atari. Its the
> lack of javascipt support in the browser that runs on top of the underying
> OS. It doesn't play well with stuff that it doesn't support.
>
> Might there not be a possibility that someone has coded a browser for the
> Atair that has Javascript support ? (Yeah ... a long shot. Almost as bad
> as wanting browser support for a Commodore 64 :( )
>
>
> Bill
>
> --
>
> William R. Mattil : http://www.celestial-images.com

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:12:14
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Starlord wrote:

> I don't know, but it seems to be that no one likes writing in 'C' or michine
> code anymore.
>

This is an absolutely true statement. It's all VB now which has a large
amount of overhead. The good news is that there is a surplus of $30K a
year kids willing to do it. C for all it's sins was extremely portable
and requires little effort to port to many different platforms. The last
5 years I have been writing C and Assembler (68XXX and RISC thank God)
No Wintel stuff. My company has a slug of kiddies writting VB apps for
those. :)

Bill

--

William R. Mattil : http://www.celestial-images.com

Date: 05 Aug 2006 04:37:29
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:12:14 GMT, "William R. Mattil"
<wrmattil@ix.netcom.com > wrote:

>This is an absolutely true statement. It's all VB now which has a large
>amount of overhead. The good news is that there is a surplus of $30K a
>year kids willing to do it. C for all it's sins was extremely portable
>and requires little effort to port to many different platforms. The last
>5 years I have been writing C and Assembler (68XXX and RISC thank God)
>No Wintel stuff. My company has a slug of kiddies writting VB apps for
>those. :)

VB is a nice language, but I don't know many serious commercial apps
being developed in it. Very nice for producing quick internal tools,
though. (Well, that's VB6; VB.NET is as good as any language.)
Thankfully, C is on its way out. That is a language designed for
disasters; almost all of the bugs in most operating systems and most
applications can be tracked back to pointer problems in C. Better
languages don't have explicit pointers, and don't have unmanaged
buffers.

C and assembly are useful for small embedded apps, but certainly not
good choices for complex programs running on top of operating systems.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 22:02:36
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Then you've never seen the shear power of the Atari TT030, in fact ALL of
the Atari 16/32 bit machines have their OS written in C and compiled and
burned into ROM chips with the only thing other than a program in RAM being
a small kerrnal for the GEM interface. I've got a full word processer on the
TT that takes up a whole 100k on the hard drive, the same kind of program on
this clone takes up MEGS of har5d drive. Oh BTW, my TT has Word Perf. 4.9 on
it and I can write in it and then save it to floppy and import it into WP9.0
on this clone.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:ur78d21dua8psds5rl32t8ec7seke5pgh4@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:12:14 GMT, "William R. Mattil"
> <wrmattil@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>This is an absolutely true statement. It's all VB now which has a large
>>amount of overhead. The good news is that there is a surplus of $30K a
>>year kids willing to do it. C for all it's sins was extremely portable
>>and requires little effort to port to many different platforms. The last
>>5 years I have been writing C and Assembler (68XXX and RISC thank God)
>>No Wintel stuff. My company has a slug of kiddies writting VB apps for
>>those. :)
>
> VB is a nice language, but I don't know many serious commercial apps
> being developed in it. Very nice for producing quick internal tools,
> though. (Well, that's VB6; VB.NET is as good as any language.)
> Thankfully, C is on its way out. That is a language designed for
> disasters; almost all of the bugs in most operating systems and most
> applications can be tracked back to pointer problems in C. Better
> languages don't have explicit pointers, and don't have unmanaged
> buffers.
>
> C and assembly are useful for small embedded apps, but certainly not
> good choices for complex programs running on top of operating systems.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 05 Aug 2006 05:33:00
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:02:36 -0700, "Starlord"
<starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote:

>Then you've never seen the shear power of the Atari TT030, in fact ALL of
>the Atari 16/32 bit machines have their OS written in C and compiled and
>burned into ROM chips with the only thing other than a program in RAM being
>a small kerrnal for the GEM interface...

Well, when we had weak processors, it was necessary to squeeze every
cycle out of them, hence programming in assembly and C (only a small
step above assembly). But these languages make it nearly impossible to
construct solid, maintainable code. Now that we have truly powerful
processors in computers, we can afford the overhead produced by modern
high level languages which support pattern driven, object oriented
design.

> I've got a full word processer on the
>TT that takes up a whole 100k on the hard drive, the same kind of program on
>this clone takes up MEGS of har5d drive. Oh BTW, my TT has Word Perf. 4.9 on
>it and I can write in it and then save it to floppy and import it into WP9.0
>on this clone.

Powerful machines encourage bloated software. Word is 1000 times more
powerful than the word processor on your TT, but not one in a thousand
people use the features that make it so. But a word processor is a very
undemanding application. Your TT would be painful for any sort of
serious image processing, for instance, no matter how well the code was
written. Or for video editing. Or for most modern games. Or for PCB
routing. Or for a realistic planetarium. Or for circuit simulation.
Basically, it still works for you because you only need applications
that haven't changed much in 15 or 20 years.

Don't get me wrong- I have a few antique computers myself, and I still
enjoy using them. But I don't use them for serious work. Really fast,
powerful machines are simply too inexpensive and too useful to pass by.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 05 Aug 2006 08:50:12
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site (Atari TT030 Rule)

You should see some of the photos that where around a few years back, seems
a little known comany that made cameras whos name starts with an "L" has
some TT's on design racks that run software for designing of lens and other
CAD operations. And to this day the Atari Falcon is used by bands to control
and record their operations on stage.

The Atari world is far from being a dead one, while the main comapny fell
victum to the greed of it's owners and mis-handling, there's still a lot of
support for the machines and while major software writers have gone to the
dark side and now write blotted code that gobbles ram, the Atari world still
has people writing and turning out software for the machines useage. While
I've not used it in some time, I still have my full desktop publishing
software on the TT, and with all the fonts and victor graphics it can use
and have imported to it, it's far from being a do nothing program.

BTW. Mircosuc had a good idea (in their own mind) once, they made a verson
of MS Word to run on the Atari 1040ST which had a full 1 meg of ram. Guess
what, it was a total FLOP, they couldn't even get the program to use the GEM
interface right and it was downright awefull, heck my old ST Writer could
blow it right out of the water. Once the Atari magazines got a copy of the
program for their reviews, it was doomed and it died a most awesome death.
We also use VT52 graphics instead of ansi too. Heck there's at lest 3
programs (still supported too) that can be used to replace the stock
desktop, I use Neodesk 4.0 myself, but there's Terradesk and another one
that is in the background someplace.

I still do a good amount of cleaning up and adjusting of jpg's and gif's on
my Atari TT030, it can use all 8 megs of ram for storing and editing of the
images. Someday I hope to find one of the ram upgrade boards and push it to
the 256 meg limit, heck with that much ram in the machine I could totaly
multi-task without running out of ram space.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:aka8d2tsav16476o5bek6bcrh2rfe3mmod@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:02:36 -0700, "Starlord"
> <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote:
>
>>Then you've never seen the shear power of the Atari TT030, in fact ALL of
>>the Atari 16/32 bit machines have their OS written in C and compiled and
>>burned into ROM chips with the only thing other than a program in RAM
>>being
>>a small kerrnal for the GEM interface...
>
> Well, when we had weak processors, it was necessary to squeeze every
> cycle out of them, hence programming in assembly and C (only a small
> step above assembly). But these languages make it nearly impossible to
> construct solid, maintainable code. Now that we have truly powerful
> processors in computers, we can afford the overhead produced by modern
> high level languages which support pattern driven, object oriented
> design.
>
>> I've got a full word processer on the
>>TT that takes up a whole 100k on the hard drive, the same kind of program
>>on
>>this clone takes up MEGS of har5d drive. Oh BTW, my TT has Word Perf. 4.9
>>on
>>it and I can write in it and then save it to floppy and import it into
>>WP9.0
>>on this clone.
>
> Powerful machines encourage bloated software. Word is 1000 times more
> powerful than the word processor on your TT, but not one in a thousand
> people use the features that make it so. But a word processor is a very
> undemanding application. Your TT would be painful for any sort of
> serious image processing, for instance, no matter how well the code was
> written. Or for video editing. Or for most modern games. Or for PCB
> routing. Or for a realistic planetarium. Or for circuit simulation.
> Basically, it still works for you because you only need applications
> that haven't changed much in 15 or 20 years.
>
> Don't get me wrong- I have a few antique computers myself, and I still
> enjoy using them. But I don't use them for serious work. Really fast,
> powerful machines are simply too inexpensive and too useful to pass by.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 08 Aug 2006 12:43:32
From: Paul Schlyter
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

In article <aka8d2tsav16476o5bek6bcrh2rfe3mmod@4ax.com >,
Chris L Peterson <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote:

> Don't get me wrong- I have a few antique computers myself, and I still
> enjoy using them. But I don't use them for serious work. Really fast,
> powerful machines are simply too inexpensive and too useful to pass by.

Antique computers can still be used also for serious work. They have
more than sufficient CPU power to e.g. compute an ephemeris of a comet
you might want to observe. Don't underestimate the usefulness of
antique computers!!!!

Actually, it's really the other way around: antique computers are more
useful for serious work, such as word processing, computing ephemerides,
etc. It's for entertainment at your leisure you need those fast modern
computers - when listening to music, watching movies, etc.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

Date: 08 Aug 2006 08:21:31
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Paul Schlyter wrote:
> Actually, it's really the other way around: antique computers are more
> useful for serious work, such as word processing, computing ephemerides,
> etc. It's for entertainment at your leisure you need those fast modern
> computers - when listening to music, watching movies, etc.

Listening to music doesn't require big iron. Watching movies at high
resolution without skipping does, though.

But serious work also wants high horsepower: If I had to do simulations
for work at 400 MHz, I'd be spending a lot of time watching water boil
(figuratively speaking).

--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Date: 08 Aug 2006 19:43:26
From: Paul Schlyter
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

In article <ebaa5r$87b$1@praesepe.isi.edu >, Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter wrote:
>> Actually, it's really the other way around: antique computers are more
>> useful for serious work, such as word processing, computing ephemerides,
>> etc. It's for entertainment at your leisure you need those fast modern
>> computers - when listening to music, watching movies, etc.
>
> Listening to music doesn't require big iron.

Converting a batch of digital music files from one digital format to
another does though --- unless you're patient. Nowadays, people tend to
be less patient....

> Watching movies at high resolution without skipping does, though.
>
> But serious work also wants high horsepower:

Nah .... we're not using MECHANICAL computers, are we? :-)

> If I had to do simulations for work at 400 MHz, I'd be spending a lot
> of time watching water boil (figuratively speaking).

True, some serious work requires a lot of CPU power. But instead of
"watching water boil", you could leave the computer running
overnight. I did that with a CP/M-80 machine running at 2 MHz some
20+ years ago.

But a lot of serious work can also be done with much less CPU power than
what's taken for granted today.

And a large fraction (most?) of today's computers are mainly entertainment
machines rather than serious workstations - a kind of glorified grammophones.
I just need to watch the way my kids use their computers -- they're not
interested in getting a stereo, they use their computer for that.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

Date: 08 Aug 2006 14:30:31
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Paul Schlyter wrote:
> Converting a batch of digital music files from one digital format to
> another does though --- unless you're patient. Nowadays, people tend to
> be less patient....

Only have to convert them once. I can listen to them over and over
without paying that price, and the songs have the advantage that they
never change, unlike the simulations I run.

> > If I had to do simulations for work at 400 MHz, I'd be spending a lot
> > of time watching water boil (figuratively speaking).
>
> True, some serious work requires a lot of CPU power. But instead of
> "watching water boil", you could leave the computer running
> overnight. I did that with a CP/M-80 machine running at 2 MHz some
> 20+ years ago.

That's no good if I want the results of one simulation run to decide
what to do with the next one. When I needed that ability 10 years ago,
say, I had to "pre-compensate" by making the simulation less detailed,
with lower fidelity. To put it more directly, because today's machines
are faster, I can make the simulations more faithful to the real world,
while still having that level of interactiveness.

I see what you're saying, but I would pin it more specifically at
graphics: applications manipulating graphics, especially in real time,
are real compute hogs. Lots of serious work isn't that, but if it does
involve serious number-crunching (as lots does), then it too is a big
compute hog. A lot of the "serious" work that is not a compute hog is
stuff that's clerical in nature--using the machine as a glorified
typewriter.

--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Date: 08 Aug 2006 17:32:16
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:43:32 GMT, pausch@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote:

>Antique computers can still be used also for serious work. They have
>more than sufficient CPU power to e.g. compute an ephemeris of a comet
>you might want to observe. Don't underestimate the usefulness of
>antique computers!!!!

I don't. But they don't do anything _better_ than new ones, so I don't
keep them around for doing work, that's all.

>Actually, it's really the other way around: antique computers are more
>useful for serious work, such as word processing, computing ephemerides,
>etc. It's for entertainment at your leisure you need those fast modern
>computers - when listening to music, watching movies, etc.

I disagree. Old computers don't do any of those things better (and often
worse, as in the case of pre-GUI word processors). Since I need a fairly
new computer to do my serious work- image processing, meteor modeling,
mapping, etc- that's what I have. The fact that the machine is overkill
for some apps (like ephemeris generation) doesn't matter.

I listen to music on my computer, and play a couple of solitaire games.
That's the extent of my "entertainment" use, and none of it requires
much in the way of computer power.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 08 Aug 2006 19:43:26
From: Paul Schlyter
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

In article <rcihd2d2meh82nk09rdpv2b1tsm6396fgo@4ax.com >,
Chris L Peterson <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote:

> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:43:32 GMT, pausch@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote:
>
>> Antique computers can still be used also for serious work. They have
>> more than sufficient CPU power to e.g. compute an ephemeris of a comet
>> you might want to observe. Don't underestimate the usefulness of
>> antique computers!!!!
>
> I don't. But they don't do anything _better_ than new ones, so I don't
> keep them around for doing work, that's all.

Don't be so categoric, because it's so easy to shoot down such an
argument: one single counter-example is enough.

Antique computers do several things better than modern computers. Some
examples:

1. They sometimes run antique software better. Antique computer
games, with hard-wired timing loops, often gets unplayable on a
modern computer - if they run at all in such an environment.

2. They give you more computing power for the money, since an antique
computer can frequently be obtained for free, from someone who was going
to throw it out anyway.

3. They're easier to understand if you want to learn all about your
computer, from the bare metal all the way up to the command prompt
(the introduction of GUI's made the internal stuff much messier).

4. If you want to design your own hardware and write your own
software accessing it, and if your resources are quite limited (which
is typical for a hobby project), doing so is easier on an antique
computer without multi-tasking, memory/port protection, etc.

5. Software tools, such as compilers/etc, can often be obtained more
cheaply for an antique computer. Not as shrink-wrapped products in
your local computer stor of course, but out on the Net.

>> Actually, it's really the other way around: antique computers are more
>> useful for serious work, such as word processing, computing ephemerides,
>> etc. It's for entertainment at your leisure you need those fast modern
>> computers - when listening to music, watching movies, etc.
>
> I disagree. Old computers don't do any of those things better (and often
> worse, as in the case of pre-GUI word processors).

I'm sorry, but e.g. computing an ephemeris for a newly discovered comet
will be done just as well on an antique computer. Doing that does not
need any GUI. Sure, the output can be made to look much prettier on a
modern computer -- but that's cosmetics. The accuracy of the final
result gets no better just because the output looks prettier.

Btw, I'm writing this response to you on a 13 year old computer.

> Since I need a fairly new computer to do my serious work- image processing,
> meteor modeling, mapping, etc- that's what I have. The fact that the machine
> is overkill for some apps (like ephemeris generation) doesn't matter.

Sure, some serious work benefits from a modern computer. But other kinds
of serious work doesn't need as much CPU power and can be done just as
well on an antique computer.

> I listen to music on my computer, and play a couple of solitaire games.
> That's the extent of my "entertainment" use, and none of it requires
> much in the way of computer power.

You're a rare kind of computer user. Long ago, such computer use was
the norm (it had to be, since computer access then was quite expensive).
Nowadays it's the exception.

Look around you -- look at your family, your friends and other
acquaintances, look at their kids. What do they use their computers
for? Are any of these, except you, doing any meteor modeling or any
other kind of comparable serious work?

> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

Date: 08 Aug 2006 20:47:20
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:43:26 GMT, pausch@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote:

>> I don't. But they don't do anything _better_ than new ones, so I don't
>> keep them around for doing work, that's all.
>
>Don't be so categoric, because it's so easy to shoot down such an
>argument: one single counter-example is enough.
>
>Antique computers do several things better than modern computers. Some
>examples:
>
>1. They sometimes run antique software better. Antique computer
>games, with hard-wired timing loops, often gets unplayable on a
>modern computer - if they run at all in such an environment.

But does the antique software work better then a modern equivalent? If
not, what's the point?

Your other example are more in the "computer as a toy" or "computer for
learning about computers" category.

>I'm sorry, but e.g. computing an ephemeris for a newly discovered comet
>will be done just as well on an antique computer.

I didn't suggest otherwise.

>Btw, I'm writing this response to you on a 13 year old computer.

Sure, why not? Composing email is hardly a computationally intensive
task. But if you also owned a nice shiny fast new computer that you used
for many of your tasks, and then deliberately retired you your old box
just to send email I'd wonder about you.

>Look around you -- look at your family, your friends and other
>acquaintances, look at their kids. What do they use their computers
>for? Are any of these, except you, doing any meteor modeling or any
>other kind of comparable serious work?

I don't really know anybody who is a serious gamer. I know a few people
who watch DVDs on their computers. I know a lot of people who do serious
enough image processing to require a fairly new computer. On the whole,
I'd say half the people I know benefit from having a machine made in the
last few years, and half could use an older machine without much problem
(assuming it could support XP; any other PC-based OS would be a big
mistake for a non-expert user).

Anyway, I sense that you missed my point. It wasn't that there is
necessarily anything wrong with old computers, nor that there aren't
plenty of things that old computers can't do just as well as new ones.
My point was that if you need a new computer for _anything_, you might
as well use if for _everything_, since it is unlikely that the old
computer could actually do things _better_. And IMO, a 13 year old
computer is not well suited to what most people use computers for,
whether entertainment or serious work.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 21:56:27
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Until I had to get a clone, I was a true 68000 user with my Atari 1040ST and
a 68030 user with my Atari TT030 and almost all of the programs are C,
Assmy, Pascal or even Atari Basic. The last true Atari machine was the Atari
Falcon 030 with the builtin DSP chip, had one too, until a power sure out
here burned it out. There was a TT030 clone made in Germany for awhile that
used the 68060 cpu, I would have liked to see that run myself.

And just think, for my TT, NO VIRUS programs needed, can't hurt an OS that's
burned in a chip set!

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"William R. Mattil" <wrmattil@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:28TAg.2340$FN2.2256@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Starlord wrote:
>
>> I don't know, but it seems to be that no one likes writing in 'C' or
>> michine code anymore.
>>
>
> This is an absolutely true statement. It's all VB now which has a large
> amount of overhead. The good news is that there is a surplus of $30K a
> year kids willing to do it. C for all it's sins was extremely portable and
> requires little effort to port to many different platforms. The last 5
> years I have been writing C and Assembler (68XXX and RISC thank God) No
> Wintel stuff. My company has a slug of kiddies writting VB apps for those.
> :)
>
>
> Bill
>
> --
>
> William R. Mattil : http://www.celestial-images.com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 23:57:50
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:46:17 -0700, "Starlord"
<starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote:

>javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
>uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it used
>to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any java or
>javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's one reason I
>take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow Atari users.

You can't expect the world to continue supporting obsolete machines
forever. And in this case, the problem is really with the Atari browser.
There is no reason it couldn't support Javascript, it just requires
somebody to make it happen. Even so, there's no reason that Javascript
should cause the browser to crash; that's a bug pure and simple. A
browser that doesn't support Javascript should simply see it as
comments. When I turn off Javascript support, Firefox continues show the
S&T site just fine, with just a few features missing.

I'm all for using scripting judiciously. Certainly, some sites use it
for no good reason. But it is a valuable tool with sites like S&T, and
not using it just to maintain compatibility with very old browsers isn't
reasonable. Neither, IMO, is it reasonable anymore for most sites to
determine which browsers are in use and redirect to appropriate pages.
There is no reason for people not to keep their browsers up to date with
the latest standards, and there is no reason for developers not to build
their sites to recent standards (which means XHTML and CSS, which I'm
sure will drive the Atari browser nuts!)

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 04 Aug 2006 17:38:16
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

The last browser to be worked on that was going to be for All the Ataris,
from the 1040ST right up to the 060 machine died, the outfit that was doing
the work just up and quit. So none of the browsers support anykind of
javascripting at all.

It's funny too in a way, my old 1991 Atari TT030 with it's 32mhz speed and
full 32bit buss, on bootup at the same time as this 750mhz machine, the TT
will be up and fully at the ready to run any program will this one is still
loading it's anti-virus junk. And being a 030 machine, there's ZERO virus to
bother it too. I and many MANY other Atari users wish that the people who
had been running Atari would have paid head to us and pushed the building of
the 060 and the designing of the 080 chips machine and would have stayed the
way. That's why I still use my TT030 for many offline working, I've got more
programs on it's little 2 gagabyte drive than I have with the full 14 ga's
of hard drive in this machine. And with the GEM interface, and the TOS 3.6
OS in ROM chips, nothing can hurt it anyway. Even my even older 1040ST is
still fun to work with and all it has is a 52 meg hard drive with tons of
Atari software on it.
For gaming I use my Atari Jag game machine, the first 64bite game machine
and there's still a company making new game carts for it.

When yahoogroups took over the email lists I had been running, that's when I
was forced to get one of these clones so that I could do the taking care of
the lists, as the listop page with it's new javascript would crash my TT030.
My old TT was the home of the Black Hole BBS for 5 years, before then it was
on my 1040ST.

Oh ya, I do NOT allow any script to run on this machine at all, anything
that has script is blocked.

An Atari Warrior

Commies suck.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:t6n7d29ru5b8djkmuidu161q1u26h4jeih@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:46:17 -0700, "Starlord"
> <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote:
>
>>javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
>>uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it
>>used
>>to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any java or
>>javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's one reason
>>I
>>take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow Atari users.
>
> You can't expect the world to continue supporting obsolete machines
> forever. And in this case, the problem is really with the Atari browser.
> There is no reason it couldn't support Javascript, it just requires
> somebody to make it happen. Even so, there's no reason that Javascript
> should cause the browser to crash; that's a bug pure and simple. A
> browser that doesn't support Javascript should simply see it as
> comments. When I turn off Javascript support, Firefox continues show the
> S&T site just fine, with just a few features missing.
>
> I'm all for using scripting judiciously. Certainly, some sites use it
> for no good reason. But it is a valuable tool with sites like S&T, and
> not using it just to maintain compatibility with very old browsers isn't
> reasonable. Neither, IMO, is it reasonable anymore for most sites to
> determine which browsers are in use and redirect to appropriate pages.
> There is no reason for people not to keep their browsers up to date with
> the latest standards, and there is no reason for developers not to build
> their sites to recent standards (which means XHTML and CSS, which I'm
> sure will drive the Atari browser nuts!)
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 05 Aug 2006 13:48:51
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote in message
news:3NmdneduyPDvUk7ZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@inreach.com...
> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it
> used to crash my TT030 all the time.
Don't blame javascript for crashing a poorly written application
or OS. Javascript is just ASCII. A properly designed browser will
ignore references it doesn't understand. If ASCII crashes your app
or OS someone needs to do some serious recoding.

--
Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

Date: 05 Aug 2006 08:52:06
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

javascript is far from being plain old ascii.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
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Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Rick Evans" <dontspamme@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:7l1Bg.302$QK.282@trndny06...
> "Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote in message
> news:3NmdneduyPDvUk7ZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@inreach.com...
>> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
>> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it
>> used to crash my TT030 all the time.
> Don't blame javascript for crashing a poorly written application
> or OS. Javascript is just ASCII. A properly designed browser will
> ignore references it doesn't understand. If ASCII crashes your app
> or OS someone needs to do some serious recoding.
>
> --
> Hilton Evans
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lat +42° 11' 07"
> Lon -71° 04' 35"
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.chempensoftware.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
>

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:06:41
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote in message
news:C-6dnRWsy7z_XknZnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@inreach.com...
> javascript is far from being plain old ascii.

Javascript applications can and are written
with a simple ascii text editor such as notepad
and requires no compiler. That makes it plain
old ascii. Of course one need only examine the
source texts of websites that embed javascript
to see that it is plain old ascii.

You're free to continue harboring your erroneous
beliefs like confusing Java with Javascript or
blaming Javascript for crashing your computer or
calling Javascript something other than ascii. Or
you can read a book on javascript and enlighten
yourself. It's up to you.

But, I'm done here.

Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

Date: 05 Aug 2006 11:34:57
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

It's a simple matter, nothing hidden at all, I can write an Atari BASIC
program for an old 8 bit atari and the commands, words, etc. are all done
with and in a text editor and saved until it's ready to be run, then it's
saved with .prg instead of .txt. I can still load it into a editor and make
changes as the letters and numbers are still writen as ascii, but that does
NOT make it a plain ascii file. As it's run as a .prg it then becomes a file
that controls the machine and dose set up and do whatever it was ment to do.

And if I still had my modem on the TT I could go to any web site that uses
javascript to do displays or whatever and either the machine would lock up
or crash. No IF's, And's or Butts about it. That is why when that machines
modem failed after some 15 years of running, I picked up a clone that ran a
modem at 2400 bps and started viewing sites that crashed the TT030.

I ran my TT030 online since it was just a single year old, it went online in
89 at some would say was the peck of JT's time at Atari, the next year the
Falcon030 came out and by 94 he and his boys had gutted the company, raided
the back account and sold off the name to some outfit that went under and
that one sold the name to pay bills. That's why the new atari games are just
old rehashs of the old company.

I know my Atari TT030 inside and out, I upgraded it to the 8 megs (4meg ST /
4 Meg TT ) ram and I upgraded the hard drive from the 48meg scsi to the 2 ga
scsi inside drive and if I could get the needed hardware, I could add
another 2 ga scsi drive outside the machine. I've got to update the online
program and get a 56kb ext modem and program the open #4 modem port for 56kb
to use that speed of modem. When I do that. it'll mostly be used to transfer
files from this machine and store them on it.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

"Rick Evans" <dontspamme@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:R65Bg.60$1i.50@trndny08...
> "Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote in message
> news:C-6dnRWsy7z_XknZnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@inreach.com...
>> javascript is far from being plain old ascii.
>
> Javascript applications can and are written
> with a simple ascii text editor such as notepad
> and requires no compiler. That makes it plain
> old ascii. Of course one need only examine the
> source texts of websites that embed javascript
> to see that it is plain old ascii.
>
> You're free to continue harboring your erroneous
> beliefs like confusing Java with Javascript or
> blaming Javascript for crashing your computer or
> calling Javascript something other than ascii. Or
> you can read a book on javascript and enlighten
> yourself. It's up to you.
>
> But, I'm done here.
>
> Hilton Evans
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lat +42° 11' 07"
> Lon -71° 04' 35"
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.chempensoftware.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
>
>
>

Date: 05 Aug 2006 08:52:07
From: Odysseus
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

In article <3NmdneduyPDvUk7ZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@inreach.com >,
"Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info > wrote:

> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogroups
> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it used
> to crash my TT030 all the time. On a normal web site without any java or
> javascripts, the old vt-52 translation works just fine. That's one reason I
> take care to make sure my web sites can be used by fellow Atari users.

The usual (or recommended) practice for websites using JavaScript is to
include the code as HTML comments, so that browsers that don't support
JS, or on which it's disabled, just ignore the script elements. Of
course in that case you miss whatever function or content the script was
supposed to provide, but it shouldn't be causing crashes.

--
Odysseus

Date: 05 Aug 2006 20:05:06
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Apparently they made an announcement about this to some people. I just
received the following from the editor of my club's newsletter:

Sky & Telescope sent out the following announcement concerning a new Web
presence they've launched. Looks interesting at:
http://skytonight.com/

> SKY & TELESCOPE Launches New Web Site
> August 1, 2006

Date: 06 Aug 2006 09:30:27
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

If you are so knowledgeable about software and obsolete computers, why,
exactly, is it you can't get any paying job? So you can stop wining
about your financial situation.

Bad knees have nothing to do with sitting at a computer--which you
seem to do most days for hours on end playing and arguing with all
comers.

Starlord wrote:
> javascript is far from being plain old ascii.
>
>
> --
> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
>
> Telescope Buyers FAQ
> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
> Sidewalk Astronomy
> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
> In Garden Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
> Astro Blog
> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/
>
>
>
>
> "Rick Evans" <dontspamme@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:7l1Bg.302$QK.282@trndny06...
> > "Starlord" <starlord@sidewalkastronomy.info> wrote in message
> > news:3NmdneduyPDvUk7ZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@inreach.com...
> >> javascript still crashs an old Atari, I know it all to well, yahoogrou=
ps
> >> uses javascript on the list pages for the listop to do maint on and it
> >> used to crash my TT030 all the time.
> > Don't blame javascript for crashing a poorly written application
> > or OS. Javascript is just ASCII. A properly designed browser will
> > ignore references it doesn't understand. If ASCII crashes your app
> > or OS someone needs to do some serious recoding.
> >
> > --
> > Hilton Evans
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Lat +42=B0 11' 07"
> > Lon -71=B0 04' 35"
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.chempensoftware.com
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
> >

Date: 06 Aug 2006 11:17:23
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

There's an old saying, something about walking some miles in another mans
shoes. Until you've :

1. lived and worked the many jobs I've had and lived on the edge and maybe
even walked up the street where I live in the heat of a summer day the 5
miles to the supermarket, until that day, you can't give any advice at all.

In my life I've taken a many jobs that others would never touch, I'd like to
see you busting rocks with a jackhammer on a hillside in 100F temps. Or how
about diging a drainage ditch during a major rain storm and get paid all of
$2.00 an hour for it.

How about going out and living in your car for 5 months on a city street
because the rents have jumped out of sight and you try living on about $200
a month.

Or how about driving a Handi-van and having to take a person off your bus
and take them to the doorway of their house as required by the law and
because your bus/van is blocking the narrow street that's no wider than some
allyways have a hot tempted get get out of his car and attack you with a
baseball bat?

How about you getting to the point where you can't even move around without
taking 4 to 8 asprin a day.

I would have liked to see someone like you come home on a plane after being
in Vietnam and have the protesters get into your face as you try to get a
taxi home.

My first computer was a T/S-1000 with all of 16k and it took me months of
reading and working with it to even begin to understand computers. From
there I got an Atari 800xl when K-mart had'm onsale and my first 1040ST came
after I got run over while crossing a street WITH a green light and having
some gal make a unlawfull left turn and hit me, putting me off the job maket
for almost a year.

Just how many jobs do you think there are for someone who can only do light
programing with an Atari 6502 CPU? Not many I'd say.

And yet, with all the pitfalls I've had to move around or even climb out
off, I've still been able to do some things that I'd lay odds on that you'd
never think of doing. Like founding an International Model Rocketry Assoc.,
become a breeder of Japanese Bobtail cats, while a teen living in San Diego
sold greeting cards and stuff door to door, have learned photography by
reading and doing it myself, started out with an old kodak brownie and am
now the user of my Topcon Super D (waiting for another camera, that's even
older to head my way, totaly manual SLR) even was able to WIN an award for
one of my photos in a contest in 97.

I could keep on going, but I'm sure others would me rather not, it's people
like you, who ride in on their high horse that tick me off a bit. At lest I
have a good e-mail account too, not something from SPAM/TROLL control gmail.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

<M104galaxy@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154881827.873457.131700@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If you are so knowledgeable about software and obsolete computers,

Date: 06 Aug 2006 13:50:41
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Touched a nerve did I?? Pathetic.

"Plonk"--are you 10 years old?

Perhaps we will now stop hearing about your old cars, your leaking
trailer house, etc, etc?

A "conservative" living off the public tit--interesting.

Starlord wrote:
> Get off your high horse and get down on the jackass you should be riding.
> That way you'll not have to use a mirror to see what you look like. I've
> dealt with your kind before and they have always amounted to a big fat ZERO.
>
> You've had an easy life and have no idea what the REAL life is really like.
>
> Most likly you stayed on some base camp and behind a desk. I feel closer to
> the 58,000+ names on the wall than I do to blow hards like you.
>
> Come on out the high mojave desert, I've got a garden out in the field that
> I work on, I'd let you do a days worth of work on a good 100+ day out there.
>
> Plus, you can't read either, not once in the main posting on this subject
> was there anything said about my income, and then you come up with your BULL
> SHIT.
>
> Tell me oh so ungreat one, how many nights have you spent out on a sidewalk
> inviting people to stop and have a look at the night sky? I'd bet it's zero.
>
> So the last thing I'm going to say to you is "PONK"
>
>
> --
> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
>
> Telescope Buyers FAQ
> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
> Sidewalk Astronomy
> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
> In Garden Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
> Astro Blog
> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/
>
>
>
>
> <M104galaxy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154890127.737034.80020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > Hundreds of thousands went to Vietnam--including me. i have friends in
> > wheelchairs who support themselves nicely.
> >
> > Get a real job like the rest of us. Stop whining, it is pathetic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Starlord wrote:
> >> There's an old saying, something about walking some miles in another mans
> >> shoes. Until you've :
> >>
> >> 1. lived and worked the many jobs I've had and lived on the edge and
> >> maybe
> >> even walked up the street where I live in the heat of a summer day the 5
> >> miles to the supermarket, until that day, you can't give any advice at
> >> all.
> >>
> >> In my life I've taken a many jobs that others would never touch, I'd like
> >> to
> >> see you busting rocks with a jackhammer on a hillside in 100F temps. Or
> >> how
> >> about diging a drainage ditch during a major rain storm and get paid all
> >> of
> >> $2.00 an hour for it.
> >>
> >> How about going out and living in your car for 5 months on a city street
> >> because the rents have jumped out of sight and you try living on about
> >> $200
> >> a month.
> >>
> >> Or how about driving a Handi-van and having to take a person off your bus
> >> and take them to the doorway of their house as required by the law and
> >> because your bus/van is blocking the narrow street that's no wider than
> >> some
> >> allyways have a hot tempted get get out of his car and attack you with a
> >> baseball bat?
> >>
> >> How about you getting to the point where you can't even move around
> >> without
> >> taking 4 to 8 asprin a day.
> >>
> >> I would have liked to see someone like you come home on a plane after
> >> being
> >> in Vietnam and have the protesters get into your face as you try to get a
> >> taxi home.
> >>
> >> My first computer was a T/S-1000 with all of 16k and it took me months of
> >> reading and working with it to even begin to understand computers. From
> >> there I got an Atari 800xl when K-mart had'm onsale and my first 1040ST
> >> came
> >> after I got run over while crossing a street WITH a green light and
> >> having
> >> some gal make a unlawfull left turn and hit me, putting me off the job
> >> maket
> >> for almost a year.
> >>
> >> Just how many jobs do you think there are for someone who can only do
> >> light
> >> programing with an Atari 6502 CPU? Not many I'd say.
> >>
> >> And yet, with all the pitfalls I've had to move around or even climb out
> >> off, I've still been able to do some things that I'd lay odds on that
> >> you'd
> >> never think of doing. Like founding an International Model Rocketry
> >> Assoc.,
> >> become a breeder of Japanese Bobtail cats, while a teen living in San
> >> Diego
> >> sold greeting cards and stuff door to door, have learned photography by
> >> reading and doing it myself, started out with an old kodak brownie and am
> >> now the user of my Topcon Super D (waiting for another camera, that's
> >> even
> >> older to head my way, totaly manual SLR) even was able to WIN an award
> >> for
> >> one of my photos in a contest in 97.
> >>
> >> I could keep on going, but I'm sure others would me rather not, it's
> >> people
> >> like you, who ride in on their high horse that tick me off a bit. At lest
> >> I
> >> have a good e-mail account too, not something from SPAM/TROLL control
> >> gmail.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
> >>
> >> Telescope Buyers FAQ
> >> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
> >> Sidewalk Astronomy
> >> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
> >> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
> >> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
> >> In Garden Online Gift Shop
> >> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
> >> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
> >> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
> >> Astro Blog
> >> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> <M104galaxy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1154881827.873457.131700@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >> If you are so knowledgeable about software and obsolete computers,
> >

Date: 06 Aug 2006 11:48:47
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Hundreds of thousands went to Vietnam--including me. i have friends in
wheelchairs who support themselves nicely.

Get a real job like the rest of us. Stop whining, it is pathetic.

Starlord wrote:
> There's an old saying, something about walking some miles in another mans
> shoes. Until you've :
>
> 1. lived and worked the many jobs I've had and lived on the edge and maybe
> even walked up the street where I live in the heat of a summer day the 5
> miles to the supermarket, until that day, you can't give any advice at all.
>
> In my life I've taken a many jobs that others would never touch, I'd like to
> see you busting rocks with a jackhammer on a hillside in 100F temps. Or how
> about diging a drainage ditch during a major rain storm and get paid all of
> $2.00 an hour for it.
>
> How about going out and living in your car for 5 months on a city street
> because the rents have jumped out of sight and you try living on about $200
> a month.
>
> Or how about driving a Handi-van and having to take a person off your bus
> and take them to the doorway of their house as required by the law and
> because your bus/van is blocking the narrow street that's no wider than some
> allyways have a hot tempted get get out of his car and attack you with a
> baseball bat?
>
> How about you getting to the point where you can't even move around without
> taking 4 to 8 asprin a day.
>
> I would have liked to see someone like you come home on a plane after being
> in Vietnam and have the protesters get into your face as you try to get a
> taxi home.
>
> My first computer was a T/S-1000 with all of 16k and it took me months of
> reading and working with it to even begin to understand computers. From
> there I got an Atari 800xl when K-mart had'm onsale and my first 1040ST came
> after I got run over while crossing a street WITH a green light and having
> some gal make a unlawfull left turn and hit me, putting me off the job maket
> for almost a year.
>
> Just how many jobs do you think there are for someone who can only do light
> programing with an Atari 6502 CPU? Not many I'd say.
>
> And yet, with all the pitfalls I've had to move around or even climb out
> off, I've still been able to do some things that I'd lay odds on that you'd
> never think of doing. Like founding an International Model Rocketry Assoc.,
> become a breeder of Japanese Bobtail cats, while a teen living in San Diego
> sold greeting cards and stuff door to door, have learned photography by
> reading and doing it myself, started out with an old kodak brownie and am
> now the user of my Topcon Super D (waiting for another camera, that's even
> older to head my way, totaly manual SLR) even was able to WIN an award for
> one of my photos in a contest in 97.
>
> I could keep on going, but I'm sure others would me rather not, it's people
> like you, who ride in on their high horse that tick me off a bit. At lest I
> have a good e-mail account too, not something from SPAM/TROLL control gmail.
>
>
> --
> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
>
> Telescope Buyers FAQ
> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
> Sidewalk Astronomy
> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
> In Garden Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
> Astro Blog
> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/
>
>
>
>
> <M104galaxy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154881827.873457.131700@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> If you are so knowledgeable about software and obsolete computers,

Date: 06 Aug 2006 13:00:58
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

Get off your high horse and get down on the jackass you should be riding.
That way you'll not have to use a mirror to see what you look like. I've
dealt with your kind before and they have always amounted to a big fat ZERO.

You've had an easy life and have no idea what the REAL life is really like.

Most likly you stayed on some base camp and behind a desk. I feel closer to
the 58,000+ names on the wall than I do to blow hards like you.

Come on out the high mojave desert, I've got a garden out in the field that
I work on, I'd let you do a days worth of work on a good 100+ day out there.

Plus, you can't read either, not once in the main posting on this subject
was there anything said about my income, and then you come up with your BULL
SHIT.

Tell me oh so ungreat one, how many nights have you spent out on a sidewalk
inviting people to stop and have a look at the night sky? I'd bet it's zero.

So the last thing I'm going to say to you is "PONK"

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond

Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
In Garden Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
Blast Off Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
Astro Blog
http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/

<M104galaxy@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154890127.737034.80020@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Hundreds of thousands went to Vietnam--including me. i have friends in
> wheelchairs who support themselves nicely.
>
> Get a real job like the rest of us. Stop whining, it is pathetic.
>
>
>
> Starlord wrote:
>> There's an old saying, something about walking some miles in another mans
>> shoes. Until you've :
>>
>> 1. lived and worked the many jobs I've had and lived on the edge and
>> maybe
>> even walked up the street where I live in the heat of a summer day the 5
>> miles to the supermarket, until that day, you can't give any advice at
>> all.
>>
>> In my life I've taken a many jobs that others would never touch, I'd like
>> to
>> see you busting rocks with a jackhammer on a hillside in 100F temps. Or
>> how
>> about diging a drainage ditch during a major rain storm and get paid all
>> of
>> $2.00 an hour for it.
>>
>> How about going out and living in your car for 5 months on a city street
>> because the rents have jumped out of sight and you try living on about
>> $200
>> a month.
>>
>> Or how about driving a Handi-van and having to take a person off your bus
>> and take them to the doorway of their house as required by the law and
>> because your bus/van is blocking the narrow street that's no wider than
>> some
>> allyways have a hot tempted get get out of his car and attack you with a
>> baseball bat?
>>
>> How about you getting to the point where you can't even move around
>> without
>> taking 4 to 8 asprin a day.
>>
>> I would have liked to see someone like you come home on a plane after
>> being
>> in Vietnam and have the protesters get into your face as you try to get a
>> taxi home.
>>
>> My first computer was a T/S-1000 with all of 16k and it took me months of
>> reading and working with it to even begin to understand computers. From
>> there I got an Atari 800xl when K-mart had'm onsale and my first 1040ST
>> came
>> after I got run over while crossing a street WITH a green light and
>> having
>> some gal make a unlawfull left turn and hit me, putting me off the job
>> maket
>> for almost a year.
>>
>> Just how many jobs do you think there are for someone who can only do
>> light
>> programing with an Atari 6502 CPU? Not many I'd say.
>>
>> And yet, with all the pitfalls I've had to move around or even climb out
>> off, I've still been able to do some things that I'd lay odds on that
>> you'd
>> never think of doing. Like founding an International Model Rocketry
>> Assoc.,
>> become a breeder of Japanese Bobtail cats, while a teen living in San
>> Diego
>> sold greeting cards and stuff door to door, have learned photography by
>> reading and doing it myself, started out with an old kodak brownie and am
>> now the user of my Topcon Super D (waiting for another camera, that's
>> even
>> older to head my way, totaly manual SLR) even was able to WIN an award
>> for
>> one of my photos in a contest in 97.
>>
>> I could keep on going, but I'm sure others would me rather not, it's
>> people
>> like you, who ride in on their high horse that tick me off a bit. At lest
>> I
>> have a good e-mail account too, not something from SPAM/TROLL control
>> gmail.
>>
>>
>> --
>> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
>>
>> Telescope Buyers FAQ
>> http://home.inreach.com/starlord
>> Sidewalk Astronomy
>> www.sidewalkastronomy.info
>> Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
>> http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net
>> In Garden Online Gift Shop
>> http://www.cafepress.com/ingarden
>> Blast Off Online Gift Shop
>> http://www.cafepress.com/starlords
>> Astro Blog
>> http://starlord.bloggerteam.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <M104galaxy@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154881827.873457.131700@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> If you are so knowledgeable about software and obsolete computers,
>

Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:53:00
From: Florian
Subject: Re: S&T's web site

>So the last thing I'm going to say to you is "PONK"

Could see that coming a mile away.

-Florian