NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

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Date: 17 Dec 2006 09:21:06
From: Dennis Woos
Subject: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.

Dennis

Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:22:14
From: Rich
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

Dennis Woos wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
>
> If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
>
> Dennis

All the yuppie "liberals" in New York pay lip-service to energy savings.

Date: 17 Dec 2006 17:51:19
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

"Dennis Woos" <dpwoos@gmavt.net > wrote in message
news:12oakiet1c6au6c@corp.supernews.com...
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
>
<Quote >With a jaundiced eye, she gazed at the small park across the
street from the restaurant. “I mean, imagine what they’d make of
that in Paris,” Ms. Harder said. “But here some lighting designer just
dropped down a few standard unshielded high-pressure sodium lights,
and the result is a mess. A total mess.”
</quote >

The "city of lights" is hardly the best example to cite.
In the early '70s a French grad school mate complained
to me she was stopped by NYPD for driving without headlights
but with parking lights. Seems Paris is so over-illuminated
at night it's accepted and legal drive around without
headlights.

> If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
>

Also, what's been fixed? From the article there is more
bad lighting in the Big Apple than ever. I notice it when
I visit.

<quote >
It seems like everything we do is fear-based,” she said. “Look, I don’t want
to switch off all the lights — this is New York City — but I am against
excessive and wasteful lighting. You could cut back those wattages by 50
percent and it wouldn’t make a difference.”
</quote >

But of course Ms. Harder can't be accused of fear mongering when she cites:
<quote >She eagerly spouts statistics on subjects like a possible link
between prolonged exposure to artificial light at night and breast cancer
(the correlation exists, she says, citing a 2005 article in the journal
Cancer Research) </quote >

Perhaps better examples would be how unshielded glary lights affects older
people with cateracts or how glary lights negatively affects driving safety.

Nonetheless, I wish her success with Albany.

--
Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

Date: 17 Dec 2006 13:10:35
From: Dennis Woos
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

>
>> If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
>>
>
> Also, what's been fixed? From the article there is more
> bad lighting in the Big Apple than ever. I notice it when
> I visit.
>

I found it encouraging that a number of folks in positions to make a
difference are willing to listen to her, and a few are becoming partners in
addressing the problem. IF NYC can make some progress - and I think the
article supports some optimism - then there is reason to be sanguine about
light pollution abatement efforts most everywhere else.

Dennis

Date: 18 Dec 2006 02:04:21
From: WTF
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

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Rick Evans wrote:

> "Dennis Woos" <dpwoos@gmavt.net> wrote in message
> news:12oakiet1c6au6c@corp.supernews.com...
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
> >
> <Quote>With a jaundiced eye, she gazed at the small park across the
> street from the restaurant. “I mean, imagine what they’d make of
> that in Paris,” Ms. Harder said. “But here some lighting designer just
> dropped down a few standard unshielded high-pressure sodium lights,
> and the result is a mess. A total mess.”
> </quote>
>
> The "city of lights" is hardly the best example to cite.
> In the early '70s a French grad school mate complained
> to me she was stopped by NYPD for driving without headlights
> but with parking lights. Seems Paris is so over-illuminated
> at night it's accepted and legal drive around without
> headlights.
>
> > If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
> >
>
> Also, what's been fixed? From the article there is more
> bad lighting in the Big Apple than ever. I notice it when
> I visit.
>
> <quote>
> It seems like everything we do is fear-based,” she said. “Look, I don’t want
> to switch off all the lights — this is New York City — but I am against
> excessive and wasteful lighting. You could cut back those wattages by 50
> percent and it wouldn’t make a difference.”
> </quote>
>
> But of course Ms. Harder can't be accused of fear mongering when she cites:
> <quote>She eagerly spouts statistics on subjects like a possible link
> between prolonged exposure to artificial light at night and breast cancer
> (the correlation exists, she says, citing a 2005 article in the journal
> Cancer Research) </quote>
>
> Perhaps better examples would be how unshielded glary lights affects older
> people with cateracts or how glary lights negatively affects driving safety.
>
> Nonetheless, I wish her success with Albany.
>
> --
> Hilton Evans
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Lat +42° 11' 07"
> Lon -71° 04' 35"
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.chempensoftware.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

If you judge light pollution on a per-capita basis, NYC and LA
etc are not the worst by a long shot! There are small towns in the Midwest with
everything but the cat lit up and they may only lack
a recent charged by the owners.

These small towns pride themselves on massive hi lumin lighting
and will defend it by citing every reason including the Bible.
Their mall-commerce depends on it and they want to be seen
from 40 miles away.

A car dealer in Mt Vernon Iowa just across the River from Pal-
Dows Observatory, where a club is building a brand new EIOLC with a 24" Boller
Chivens! and a robotic Meade 16", depends
on people seeing his lot from as far away as possible. He isnt
about to lower his lights, but only increase them. He already
lights up the whole nor-eastern section of the sky as seen from
Dows.

The urban centers have nothing on areas of the Midwest. The
Midwest wants to be just like they are! They are the models
to emulate, aren't they?

lm

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" >
<html >

Rick Evans wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE >"Dennis Woos" <dpwoos@gmavt.net> wrote in message
 <a href="news:12oakiet1c6au6c@corp.supernews.com">news:12oakiet1c6au6c@corp.supernews.com</a>...
 > <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1</a>
 >
 <Quote>With a jaundiced eye, she gazed at the
small park across the
 street from the restaurant. “I mean, imagine what
they’d make of
 that in Paris,” Ms. Harder said. “But here some lighting designer just
 dropped down a few standard unshielded
high-pressure sodium lights,
 and the result is a mess. A total mess.”
 </quote>
The "city of lights" is hardly the best example to cite.
 In the early '70s a French grad school mate complained
 to me she was stopped by NYPD for driving without headlights
 but with parking lights. Seems Paris is so over-illuminated
 at night it's accepted and legal drive around without
 headlights.
> If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
 >
Also, what's been fixed? From the article there is more
 bad lighting in the Big Apple than ever. I notice it when
 I visit.
<quote>
 It seems like everything we do is fear-based,” she said. “Look, I don’t
want
 to switch off all the lights — this is New York City — but I am against
 excessive and wasteful lighting. You could cut back those wattages
by 50
 percent and it wouldn’t make a difference.”
 </quote>
But of course Ms. Harder can't be accused of fear mongering when she
cites:
 <quote>She eagerly spouts statistics on subjects like a possible
link
 between prolonged exposure to artificial light at night and breast
cancer
 (the correlation exists, she says, citing a 2005 article in the journal
 Cancer Research) </quote>
Perhaps better examples would be how unshielded glary lights affects
older
 people with cateracts or how glary lights negatively affects driving
safety.
Nonetheless, I wish her success with Albany.
--
 Hilton Evans
 ----------------------------------------------------------------
 Lat +42° 11' 07"
 Lon -71° 04' 35"
 ----------------------------------------------------------------
 <a href="http://www.chempensoftware.com">http://www.chempensoftware.com</a>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------
 <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm">http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm</a></blockquote>
If you judge light pollution on a per-capita basis, NYC and LA
 etc are not the worst by a long shot! There are small towns in the
Midwest with everything but the cat lit up and they may only lack
 a recent charged by the owners.
These small towns pride themselves on massive hi lumin lighting
 and will defend it by citing every reason including the Bible.
 Their mall-commerce depends on it and they want to be seen
 from 40 miles away.
A car dealer in Mt Vernon Iowa just across the River from Pal-
 Dows Observatory, where a club is building a brand new EIOLC with a
24" Boller Chivens! and a robotic Meade 16", depends
 on people seeing his lot from as far away as possible. He isnt
 about to lower his lights, but only increase them. He already
 lights up the whole nor-eastern section of the sky as seen from
 Dows.
The urban centers have nothing on areas of the Midwest. The
 Midwest wants to be just like they are! They are the models
 to emulate, aren't they?
lm</html>

--------------C93B86C43708F46109F569EF--

Date: 18 Dec 2006 13:52:31
From: starburst
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

WTF wrote:
>>
> If you judge light pollution on a per-capita basis, NYC and LA
> etc are not the worst by a long shot! There are small towns in the
> Midwest with everything but the cat lit up and they may only lack
> a recent charged by the owners.
>
> These small towns pride themselves on massive hi lumin lighting
> and will defend it by citing every reason including the Bible.
> Their mall-commerce depends on it and they want to be seen
> from 40 miles away.
>
> A car dealer in Mt Vernon Iowa just across the River from Pal-
> Dows Observatory, where a club is building a brand new EIOLC with a 24"
> Boller Chivens! and a robotic Meade 16", depends
> on people seeing his lot from as far away as possible. He isnt
> about to lower his lights, but only increase them. He already
> lights up the whole nor-eastern section of the sky as seen from
> Dows.
>
> The urban centers have nothing on areas of the Midwest. The
> Midwest wants to be just like they are! They are the models
> to emulate, aren't they?
>
> lm
>

I also wonder what exactly has changed in NYC. Looks to me, judging by
the attitudes of the transportation people, that the desire is for more
lighting, not less. And they don't seem to be interested in any kind of
cut offs that would direct the light downwards. THings may change, but
this article doesn't show it happening yet.

As for the midwest, Texas at least has a dark skies initiative that
limits the types of lighting used by the state, so there's hope. After
all, gotta keep those stars at night big and bright, clap clap clap
clap, deep in the heart of Texas.

Clear skies - Chris

Date: 18 Dec 2006 02:44:45
From: George Normandin
Subject: Re: NYTimes story about light pollution in the city

"Dennis Woos" < > wrote

> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/nyregion/thecity/17ligh.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
>
> If it can be fixed there, it can be fixed anywhere.
>

Dennis, et al:

As the article mentioned the last attempt at passing a NY light pollution
bill was killed off by New York City (the mayor, but mostly the dept of
transportation) getting the Governor to pocket-veto the bill. If the
Legislature had still been in session they would have had more then enough
votes to over-ride the veto. Perhaps our new Gov will think differently.

George Normandin