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Main
Date: 08 Aug 2006 15:02:23
From: TBerk
Subject: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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<http://www.californiaconnected.org/tv/archives/449 >
&
<http://www.death-valley.us/article306.html >
Here on the West Coast I was watching a show called California
Connected, and it had a piece about some folks working out of Death
Valley and the loss of the night sky to wasted light pollution
It was called 'In Search of Darkness' and brought back to mind the
nerve wracking problems with wasted energy, wasted light, wasted
experiences and the loss of a natural resource our young people don't
know about any more.
Nothing can replace laying with the Earth at your back and the Milky
Way overhead and the knowing of the world turning under it all.
I suppose no one person can fix this problem; but perhaps each of us
can influence those about us, without seeming 'kooky' or extremely
radical.
In any case, if you get a chance to watch the episode listed above,
please do so.
TBerk
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 18:37:36
From: Ed
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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Chris,
Look at the data man there is a huge amount of folks who are
professional astronomers and who are not active and more amateurs that
are not.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 20:05:09
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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Ed wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Look at the data man there is a huge amount of folks who are
> professional astronomers and who are not active and more amateurs that
> are not.
That's could be said of anything... But it does not translate into "only
a few are interested." Perhaps in your neck of the woods (wherever that
may be) but in my experience in Southern California and the Southwest
it's quite the opposite.
Clear skies,
Greg
--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html
To reply take out your eye
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 17:15:36
From: Ed
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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TBerk,
Sadly, few Professional or Amateurs are interested in this.
Yes, you can make a difference as my club BMAA., Inc. did
manage to work some years ago and got 2 Township ordinances
passed.
Statewide, here in Pennsylvania, there was a bill that tried to go
through
the statehouse.
It did not pass because the Pennsylvania Dept of Transportation
(Penndot)
deemed it too costly.
Of course, if you do a bit of research there have been several states
and municipalities
that have passed laws prohibiting excess night lighting. And for
whatever reason
IDA has not compiled data from these municipalities and states
regarding a cost savings analysis for each of these American cities or
states.
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 00:42:05
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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On 8 Aug 2006 17:15:36 -0700, "Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net > wrote:
>Sadly, few Professional or Amateurs are interested in this.
Why do you think this? I think nearly all astronomers, professional or
amateur are very interested in this. Many are actively involved in
mitigation measures.
I also think the situation is improving somewhat, although reductions in
wasted light aren't always keeping up with population growth. But
agencies are slowly catching on to the fact that there are substantial
savings to be had by reducing light pollution. And in some cases, it
even goes beyond economics: here in my rural county, the last couple of
housing developments that were approved carried specific lighting
restrictions solely for the purpose of preserving the night sky.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 10:51:25
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1155082536.683035.266760@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> TBerk,
>
> Sadly, few Professional or Amateurs are interested in this.
Bunk!
For years Massachusetts Rep. Marzilli of Arlington,
MA has worked with amateur and professional astronomers to
push a anti light pollution, sensible (full cutoff) lighting bill
through the state legislature only to have it come close then die
in some committee. http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/~graff/nelpag/BILL.html
> Yes, you can make a difference as my club BMAA., Inc. did
> manage to work some years ago and got 2 Township ordinances
> passed.
That is admirable. However, it does little good in a high
population density region to darken one town, as is the
case with Harvard, MA only to have surrounding towns be
artificial twilight zones.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/06/28/lights_out/
>IDA has not compiled data from these municipalities and states
>regarding a cost savings analysis for each of these American cities or
>states.
I find it ironic you pick on IDA. A few years ago S&T did a
commentary lamenting the number of members paying dues to IDA
compared to the number of S&T subscribers.
--
Hilton Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
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http://www.chempensoftware.com
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http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 20:39:31
From: Ed
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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Sorry Chris but the Southwest isn't the whole United States either.
You are preaching to the choir but you are not noticing everyone else.
I'm on the East Coast my friend, just outside of Philadelphia.
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 03:53:42
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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On 8 Aug 2006 20:39:31 -0700, "Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net > wrote:
>Sorry Chris but the Southwest isn't the whole United States either.
>You are preaching to the choir but you are not noticing everyone else.
>
>I'm on the East Coast my friend, just outside of Philadelphia.
I'm not talking about the SW. Most of the success stories I've read
about have been in New England, and generally east of the Mississippi.
IMO, if there is an apathy problem it must be limited to your area.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 03:47:58
From: George
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:2umid2979fqoe0se9fn63dcdbq38vl9sll@4ax.com...
> On 8 Aug 2006 20:39:31 -0700, "Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Sorry Chris but the Southwest isn't the whole United States either.
>>You are preaching to the choir but you are not noticing everyone else.
>>
>>I'm on the East Coast my friend, just outside of Philadelphia.
>
> I'm not talking about the SW. Most of the success stories I've read
> about have been in New England, and generally east of the Mississippi.
> IMO, if there is an apathy problem it must be limited to your area.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com
I don't know where Ed lives, but I too live east of the Mississippi (along
the Ohio River), and the light pollution here is horrible. I've talked to
some in places like Milwaukee, for instance, who have had some success in
getting ordinances passed to change lighting, but it is my experience that
the vast majority of cities east of the Mississippi have terrible problems
with light pollution. On a good night, I can barely see the northern cross
from my backyard. I can see polaris if I try hard enough, but forget about
seeing the little dipper. It just can't be seen here at all.
George
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 13:17:22
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 03:47:58 -0400, "George" <george@yourservice.com >
wrote:
>I don't know where Ed lives, but I too live east of the Mississippi (along
>the Ohio River), and the light pollution here is horrible. I've talked to
>some in places like Milwaukee, for instance, who have had some success in
>getting ordinances passed to change lighting, but it is my experience that
>the vast majority of cities east of the Mississippi have terrible problems
>with light pollution. On a good night, I can barely see the northern cross
>from my backyard. I can see polaris if I try hard enough, but forget about
>seeing the little dipper. It just can't be seen here at all.
No doubt that light pollution is far worse east of the Mississippi. I
was taking exception to Ed's belief that astronomers in general were
apathetic about it (or possibly that eastern astronomers were more
apathetic than western ones).
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 10:05:14
From: George
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:mtnjd29le096mr2v3kgkkd5aa3pn4qvkl2@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 03:47:58 -0400, "George" <george@yourservice.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I don't know where Ed lives, but I too live east of the Mississippi
>>(along
>>the Ohio River), and the light pollution here is horrible. I've talked
>>to
>>some in places like Milwaukee, for instance, who have had some success in
>>getting ordinances passed to change lighting, but it is my experience
>>that
>>the vast majority of cities east of the Mississippi have terrible
>>problems
>>with light pollution. On a good night, I can barely see the northern
>>cross
>>from my backyard. I can see polaris if I try hard enough, but forget
>>about
>>seeing the little dipper. It just can't be seen here at all.
>
> No doubt that light pollution is far worse east of the Mississippi. I
> was taking exception to Ed's belief that astronomers in general were
> apathetic about it (or possibly that eastern astronomers were more
> apathetic than western ones).
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com
I don't know any astronomers or amateurs who are appathetic about it. The
issue is not the astronomers, but the pervasiveness of the light pollution.
I mean, in most places around here, trying to put a dent in the amount of
light pollution would be such a huge undertaking that it would likely be an
exercise in futility.
George
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 14:21:56
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:05:14 -0400, "George" <george@yourservice.com >
wrote:
>I don't know any astronomers or amateurs who are appathetic about it.
Me either.
>The issue is not the astronomers, but the pervasiveness of the light pollution.
>I mean, in most places around here, trying to put a dent in the amount of
>light pollution would be such a huge undertaking that it would likely be an
>exercise in futility.
A lot of light pollution is local. That is, even if you live just a few
miles from a huge city, a substantial amount of the light in the sky is
coming from your immediate area. So minimizing waste light in suburbs
and satellite towns is useful, and doing so is often possible.
It will take years for wider levels to drop significantly, but if you
don't do anything now because it seems futile, nothing will ever change.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 22:36:53
From: George
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:ljrjd2t7qj8q8tr2q1kk95i2s3gc48vlum@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:05:14 -0400, "George" <george@yourservice.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I don't know any astronomers or amateurs who are appathetic about it.
>
> Me either.
>
>>The issue is not the astronomers, but the pervasiveness of the light
>>pollution.
>>I mean, in most places around here, trying to put a dent in the amount of
>>light pollution would be such a huge undertaking that it would likely be
>>an
>>exercise in futility.
>
> A lot of light pollution is local. That is, even if you live just a few
> miles from a huge city, a substantial amount of the light in the sky is
> coming from your immediate area. So minimizing waste light in suburbs
> and satellite towns is useful, and doing so is often possible.
>
> It will take years for wider levels to drop significantly, but if you
> don't do anything now because it seems futile, nothing will ever change.
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Chris L Peterson
> Cloudbait Observatory
> http://www.cloudbait.com
Good points, Chris.
George
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 12:55:31
From: AM
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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TBerk wrote:
> Nothing can replace laying with the Earth at your back and the Milky
> Way overhead
You could have stopped right there :)
--
AM
http://sctuser.home.comcast.net
CentOS 4.3 KDE 3.3
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 19:33:59
From: Ed
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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George, I live just a bit east and north of Trenton, northeast of
Philadelphia.
And I've seen the skies get progressively worse in the 25 years that I
have lived here.
Yes, there have been some notable successes but most of us have jobs
and have lives too. It's pretty hard to sustain interest in doing LP
programs every week.
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 03:57:37
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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On 9 Aug 2006 19:33:59 -0700, "Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net > wrote:
>Yes, there have been some notable successes but most of us have jobs
>and have lives too. It's pretty hard to sustain interest in doing LP
>programs every week.
So do one once a year. Educate others informally. And keep the topic
alive whenever possible when you are with non-astronomers. It doesn't
have to be the center of your life for you to be part of the solution.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 10 Aug 2006 22:39:57
From: George
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1155177239.217742.84590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> George, I live just a bit east and north of Trenton, northeast of
> Philadelphia.
> And I've seen the skies get progressively worse in the 25 years that I
> have lived here.
>
> Yes, there have been some notable successes but most of us have jobs
> and have lives too. It's pretty hard to sustain interest in doing LP
> programs every week.
Oh, I agree. I've had the same experience both in the light pollution
getting worse, and in sustaining interest in doing something about it. You
complain about one set of lights, and lo and behold another set pops up.
And our city just doesn't care enough to do anything about it. However, an
upside to the current energy crunch may be the metros will now have to some
to terms with all the wasteful use of so many misplaced and misdirected
mini suns.
George
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 11:22:37
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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"George" <george@yourservice.com > wrote in message
news:Hv-dnRGnO9pgcEbZnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>
> "Ed" <ed1ward2@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1155177239.217742.84590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> George, I live just a bit east and north of Trenton, northeast of
>> Philadelphia.
>> And I've seen the skies get progressively worse in the 25 years that I
>> have lived here.
>>
>> Yes, there have been some notable successes but most of us have jobs
>> and have lives too. It's pretty hard to sustain interest in doing LP
>> programs every week.
>
> Oh, I agree. I've had the same experience both in the light pollution
> getting worse, and in sustaining interest in doing something about it. You
> complain about one set of lights, and lo and behold another set pops up.
> And our city just doesn't care enough to do anything about it. However, an
> upside to the current energy crunch may be the metros will now have to
> some to terms with all the wasteful use of so many misplaced and
> misdirected mini suns.
My personal observation is that most of the misplaced
and misdirected minisuns are on residential and commercial
properties. Thirty years ago it was uncommon to have huge
sodium flood lights illuminating multiunit residential
parking lots. Now its universal.
Also, a recent trend in New England is to replace cobra head
street lamps acorn style lights especially in retail areas.
These lights are so lousy (Most of the light misses the street)
that in some parts of Boston two lamps share one pole.
If the power company can show that if a new (really poorly designed)
street light uses less energy than the old (but well designed)
light but puts out lots more light public works, decision makers
are sold.
--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.chempensoftware.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 12:56:23
From: draper1070
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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AM wrote:
> TBerk wrote:
>
> > Nothing can replace laying with the Earth at your back and the Milky
> > Way overhead
>
>
>
> You could have stopped right there :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AM
>
> http://sctuser.home.comcast.net
> My two cents is that no headway will ever be made if light pollution reduction is pitche d as something important to a relatively few "kooks" ie. amateur astronomers.But when you can demonstrate dollar and cents savings for illuminating the area under a given light and not just shedding ones photons to the cosmos,people will listen.Since said savings can be significant.that is the point which must be hammered by anyone interested in reducing light pollutionAnything else is wishful thinking..(Clear Skies)and (Dark) Draper10701
> CentOS 4.3 KDE 3.3
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 14:52:24
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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draper1070 wrote:
>> http://sctuser.home.comcast.net My two cents is that no headway
>> will ever be made if light pollution reduction is pitche d as
>> something important to a relatively few "kooks" ie. amateur
>> astronomers.But when you can demonstrate dollar and cents savings
>> for illuminating the area under a given light and not just
>> shedding ones photons to the cosmos,people will listen.Since said
>> savings can be significant.that is the point which must be hammered
>> by anyone interested in reducing light pollutionAnything else is
>> wishful thinking..(Clear Skies)and (Dark) Draper10701 CentOS
>> 4.3 KDE 3.3
Quite right.
We've found here that concentrating on glare instead of light pollution
works very well. A full-cutoff lighting fixture has advantages for
everyone: it puts more of the light where it is wanted while keeping it
away from where it is not wanted. One of the places it is not wanted is
is shining in the eyes of passers by. It takes surprisingly little
effort to make people aware of how much annoying glare they put up with.
A very good approach is to shield an area and then simply point out
how much nicer it is to be outside at night. Just about everyone who
looks will see the benefit. The fact that these same fixtures reduce
light pollution is just a nice side effect. ;-)
Clear skies,
Greg
--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html
To reply take out your eye
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 19:23:46
From: Ed
Subject: Re: Light Pollution and the Loss of the Night Sky
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Martin,
The IDA is how old?
More than 10 years,possibly almost 20?
The biggest problem I have with IDA is this:
They say that controlling Light Pollution will save money but
where is the hard DATA from municipalities that have switched to
"Good Neighbor" Lighting?
I don't care about what certain luminaires should be able to do,
I want HARD DATA from folks who have done it and testimony too.
Local & State Politicians LOVE real data like this and it is much
easier to sell
Light Pollution that way.
BTW, I will say this again, I have been on the forefront here in my
county and I wear my Dark Skies T shirt
(it has the Milky Way on the back I think and the United States at
Night on the front) and I always seem to get a question or two that I
answer.
Best to you though from across the pond
be careful next time you fly:(
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