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Main
Date: 01 Nov 2006 15:49:53
From: Chris.B
Subject: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
to easily dismiss them out of hand.
Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
time-related afar.
Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:11:25
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
I'll do my best.
> Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
> artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
> to easily dismiss them out of hand.
Bzzzzzzt!! Wrong. Should read "Nobody has ever presented even one tiny
shred of evidence concerning the existence of UFO's... therefore such
claims are to be dismissed out of hand /unless/ evidence is provided."
> Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
> being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
> potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
OK. But of the extra-solar planets discovered to date, not one could be
inhabited by humans. Probably not by anything, in fact.
> It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
?Non sequitur? You think that's why SETI has not detected an alien
civilization?? I think it's because there are no alien civilizations
near enough to be detected, or possibly because there aren't any alien
civilizations.
> Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
> could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
> capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
Einstein postulated that it is possible to travel into the future, and
that possibility has since been demonstrated concretely. But one almost
certainly can't travel back in time. As Hawking said, "Time travel
might be possible, but if that is the case why haven't we been overrun
by tourists from the future?"
<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2612time.html >
> Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
> truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
Fuzzy? Hairy? Hair ball? Odd ball?
> No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> exploit.
I can live with that.
> Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
They're not /wrong/ . They're writing science /fiction/ .
> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> time-related afar.
No.
> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
That would be neat. I could mail it 100 years ago and save a few
pennies on postage. While I was back there I could invest in a few
select companies. And hunt down young Hitler and kill him.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 02:04:14
From: Iordani
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
What was the question?
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 17:16:31
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Iordani wrote:
> > Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
>
> What was the question?
Ohhhhhh, I'm sorry, that is incorrect. And you wagered...all of it.
No, the correct question was, "What was inscrutable?"
--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 00:22:15
From: Sam Wormley
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
>
> Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
> artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
> to easily dismiss them out of hand.
>
> Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
> being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
> potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
>
> It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
>
> Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
> could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
> capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
>
> Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
> truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
>
> No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
>
> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> time-related afar.
>
> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
>
Shear numbers, hmmm... There are an awful lot of people who believe
in thing like:
o angles
o ghosts
o peoples lives being influenced by what planets were visible in
what constellations at the time and place they were born
"The most common of all follies," wrote H. L. Mencken, "is to believe
passionately in the palpably not true."
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:46:36
From: Moe M. Down
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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>> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
>>
>
> Shear numbers, hmmm... There are an awful lot of people who believe
> in thing like:
>
> o angles
> o ghosts
> o peoples lives being influenced by what planets were visible in
> what constellations at the time and place they were born
Ya I believe in angles..LOL. So did Euclid.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:23:13
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:XSa2h.220907$FQ1.159601@attbi_s71...
>
> Shear numbers, hmmm... There are an awful lot of people who believe
> in thing like:
>
> o angles
[SNIP]
I knew there was something wrong with my geometry teacher! Leading me down
the path of pseudoscience.
Clear skies, Alan
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:50:40
From: JpRw
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Sam Wormley wrote:
> Chris.B wrote:
> > Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
> >
> > Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
> > artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
> > to easily dismiss them out of hand.
> >
> > Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
> > being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
> > potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
> >
> > It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> > bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> > remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> > deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
> >
> > Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
> > could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
> > capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
> >
> > Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
> > truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
> >
> > No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> > aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> > exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
> >
> > So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> > radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> > objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> > come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> > time-related afar.
> >
> > Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
> >
>
> Shear numbers, hmmm... There are an awful lot of people who believe
> in thing like:
>
> o angles
> o ghosts
> o peoples lives being influenced by what planets were visible in
> what constellations at the time and place they were born
>
> "The most common of all follies," wrote H. L. Mencken, "is to believe
> passionately in the palpably not true."
Mencken also said: "At his best, Mankind is only superficially rational."
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 17:13:57
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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"Chris.B" <chris.b@mail.dk > wrote in message
news:1162424993.184508.171550@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
>bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves.
That's why they would send nanobots.
<snip >
> No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
Only the forgettable ones. H.G. Wells' classic continues
to be an overlooked (by English teachers) but memorable
classic. ;)
--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 07"
Lon -71° 04' 35"
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 05:48:07
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Davoud wrote:
> Chris.B wrote:
>
> > Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
>
> I'll do my best.
>
Me Too.
<snip >
> > It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> > bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> > remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> > deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
>
> ?Non sequitur? You think that's why SETI has not detected an alien
> civilization?? I think it's because there are no alien civilizations
> near enough to be detected, or possibly because there aren't any alien
> civilizations.
Or they have quit using radio because they have found better means.
There are communications technologies that we have abandoned because we
found newer, better technologies. Perhaps the real reason we haven't
detected anything isn't because it's not there, but because we're
looking for the interstellar equivalent of smoke signals.
Austin
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 15:43:33
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> > > It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> > > bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> > > remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> > > deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
Davoud wrote:
> > ?Non sequitur? You think that's why SETI has not detected an alien
> > civilization?? I think it's because there are no alien civilizations
> > near enough to be detected, or possibly because there aren't any alien
> > civilizations.
AustinMN:
> Or they have quit using radio because they have found better means.
> There are communications technologies that we have abandoned because we
> found newer, better technologies. Perhaps the real reason we haven't
> detected anything isn't because it's not there, but because we're
> looking for the interstellar equivalent of smoke signals.
We can communicate by copper wire, fiber optics, laser, and what-not.
But we still use radio. If the supposed ET's obey the laws of physics
that we obey, and if they are sufficiently advanced, they /probably/
use radio.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 04:39:30
From: Chris.B
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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wsnell01@hotmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
>
> In the future please keep this sort of topic over in sci.astro, where
> it belongs. <evil grin>
>
> Thank you.
Another display of prejudice similar to those which went before? The
burden of pre-judgment is a tribute to the walking wounded who have
hijacked this list in the past.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 08:07:03
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> ...the walking wounded who have
> hijacked this list in the past.
I see no list here.
--
St. John
A furore Normanorum libera nos, O Domine!
[From the fury of the norsemen deliver us, O Lord!]
-Medieval prayer
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 02:25:14
From:
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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<snip >
In the future please keep this sort of topic over in sci.astro, where
it belongs. <evil grin >
Thank you.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:44:46
From: Matthew Ota
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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I beeleeve it wuz a misplelling of werds, angels instead of angles.
;-)
Matthew Ota
4th grade spelling bee champion
Moe M. Down wrote:
> >> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
> >>
> >
> > Shear numbers, hmmm... There are an awful lot of people who believe
> > in thing like:
> >
> > o angles
> > o ghosts
> > o peoples lives being influenced by what planets were visible in
> > what constellations at the time and place they were born
>
>
> Ya I believe in angles..LOL. So did Euclid.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:39:00
From: Chris.B
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
JpRw wrote:
> "Chris.B" wrote:
>
> >
> > So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> > radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> > objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> > come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> > time-related afar.
>
> you will note, nobody touched this with a ten foot pole -
How true. But entertaining so far.
Wormhole foam, anybody? ;-)
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 13:01:57
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Chris.B wrote:
> JpRw wrote:
>> "Chris.B" wrote:
>>
>>> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
>>> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
>>> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
>>> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
>>> time-related afar.
>> you will note, nobody touched this with a ten foot pole -
>
> How true. But entertaining so far.
>
> Wormhole foam, anybody? ;-)
>
chronotons.
Didn't you guys ever watch ST-TNG?
Shawn
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 01:08:03
From: Goshen
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Shawn wrote:
> Chris.B wrote:
> > JpRw wrote:
> >> "Chris.B" wrote:
> >>
> >>> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> >>> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> >>> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> >>> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> >>> time-related afar.
> >> you will note, nobody touched this with a ten foot pole -
> >
> > How true. But entertaining so far.
> >
> > Wormhole foam, anybody? ;-)
> >
> chronotons.
>
> Didn't you guys ever watch ST-TNG?
>
> Shawn
honestly? No. Dont even know what that is.
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:53:54
From: JpRw
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
"Chris.B" wrote:
>
> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> time-related afar.
you will note, nobody touched this with a ten foot pole -
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:47:56
From: JpRw
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Post of the Month Award!
Very good (smile)
"Chris.B" wrote:
> Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
>
> Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
> artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
> to easily dismiss them out of hand.
>
> Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
> being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
> potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
>
> It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
>
> Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
> could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
> capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
>
> Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
> truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
>
> No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
>
> So to the crux of the matter: Might there be some form of unique
> radiation caused only by time travel or spacially static, time-shifted
> objects which might just be detectable by us? It may be they cannot
> come to us in person but they can send the means to observe us from
> time-related afar.
>
> Answers on a stamped, addressed and time-shifted postcard please, to:
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 13:50:43
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
Davoud wrote:
> Chris.B wrote:
> > > > It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> > > > bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> > > > remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> > > > deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
>
> Davoud wrote:
> > > ?Non sequitur? You think that's why SETI has not detected an alien
> > > civilization?? I think it's because there are no alien civilizations
> > > near enough to be detected, or possibly because there aren't any alien
> > > civilizations.
>
> AustinMN:
> > Or they have quit using radio because they have found better means.
> > There are communications technologies that we have abandoned because we
> > found newer, better technologies. Perhaps the real reason we haven't
> > detected anything isn't because it's not there, but because we're
> > looking for the interstellar equivalent of smoke signals.
>
> We can communicate by copper wire, fiber optics, laser, and what-not.
> But we still use radio.
We use it, but the things you mentioned, and some other things, such as
satellite, are the beginning of the end for the very high power
broadcasts of the type that SETI relies on being able to detect. We
have been using high-power radio for about 100 years. The window may
be twice that in which we would be able to find SETI signals. Do you
honestly think we will probably be using radio 1,000, 10,000, 100,000
years from now? And if we are, that it will be in the massive doses we
use today?
Human scientific knowledge is still increasing exponentially; it is
absurd to think that we will not likely have anything better than
radio. We are still discovering things we do not at all expect, even
in the world of physics.
> If the supposed ET's obey the laws of physics
> that we obey, and if they are sufficiently advanced, they /probably/
> use radio.
We used to use smoke, because in the right conditions it travelled
faster and farther than running or shouting.
We used to use telegraph, because it was more reliable and faster than
semaphore.
We used to use wired telephones, because it was better than writing
letters.
Personally, I see more and more low-and very-low powered radio, and
less of the 10,000 watt- 1,000,000+ watt broadcast stations. It's
cheaper and easier to get on to cable, sattelite, or the internet than
to put up a high-power broadcast station.
Just because we have not done away with a technology, or cannot see a
way to do so yet, does not mean we never will.
Some SETI scientists are suggesting we should be looking for lasers
(deliberately pointed at us), not radio.
Is there something out there? I don't know. Maybe, manybe not. Does
lack of SETI results mean there isn't? Absolutely not.
Austin
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 11:01:27
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
Davoud:
> > But we still use radio.
AustinMN:
> We use it, but the things you mentioned, and some other things, such as
> satellite, are the beginning of the end for the very high power
> broadcasts of the type that SETI relies on being able to detect.
But the signals from the high-power radio stage of our civilization are
still traveling outward, are they not?
> Human scientific knowledge is still increasing exponentially;
A bit of hyperbole there, I would say.
> > If the supposed ET's obey the laws of physics
> > that we obey, and if they are sufficiently advanced, they /probably/
> > use radio.
>
> We used to use smoke, because in the right conditions it travelled
> faster and farther than running or shouting.
A bit of sloppiness. Communication by smoke signal does not depend on
the smoke traveling anywhere but upward; the /signal/ travels at the
speed of light. The Church of Rome still communicates via smoke
signals, by the way.
> We used to use wired telephones, because it was better than writing
> letters.
The vast majority of telephones are connected by copper wire.
> Is there something out there? I don't know. Maybe, manybe not. Does
> lack of SETI results mean there isn't? Absolutely not.
Stating the obvious. But one of the following is most likely true:
A) There is no one out there.
B) There is someone out there, but we never detect them. That is the
same as A).
B) There is someone out there, and we detect their presence. But they
are so far away that we will never interact with them. This, too, is
functionally the same as A); such a result would satisfy many peoples'
curiosity and set the Mormons to converting the aliens, but it would
have no practical value. It would also give rise to a class of
conspiracy theorists such as we have never seen before.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 05 Nov 2006 20:51:13
From: T. Bloompaster Weatherford
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:01:27 -0500, Davoud <star@sky.net > wrote:
>Stating the obvious. But one of the following is most likely true:
---
As usual, you've got it all figured out. Let's just stop doing
everything since you've got all the answers.
>A) There is no one out there.
>
>B) There is someone out there, but we never detect them. That is the
>same as A).
>
>B) There is someone out there, and we detect their presence. But they
>are so far away that we will never interact with them. This, too, is
>functionally the same as A); such a result would satisfy many peoples'
>curiosity and set the Mormons to converting the aliens, but it would
>have no practical value. It would also give rise to a class of
>conspiracy theorists such as we have never seen before.
---
It would also set off your circle-jerk friends, the Dumbocrats, in
pursuit of the alien vote. "I feel your alienation from mainstream
Dumbocrat thought."
" We must not allow these potential voters to be intimidated into not
voting by the Republicans, merely because they're 80,000 light years
away."
T. Bloompaster Weatherford
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 02:22:50
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
No, keep looking.
I am a strong believer that we better find ET or be ET. Just seemed
that when the time crossover thing gets factored in, with the average
species existence on earth of about 1e6 years, the chances of finding
another bunch of space ship drivers ( driving space ships when we are
driving space ships) or sending radio signals when we can receive them
gets a bit on the lean side.
I'd be just as happy to find a planet of Dinosaurs or Ammonites. I got
so tired of evil space creatures taking over the Enterprise.
Neigile Marvin in prehistoric park seems a much better ET story than
most of the Star Treck plots.
Dolphins are nearly as smart as humans. So are some Chimps and even a
few political leaders. If we can't communicate with them, what hope do
we have to convince ET not to either shoot us or eat us.?
Jim
T. Bloompaster Weatherford <TBW@fastnet.net > wrote:
>On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 11:01:27 -0500, Davoud <star@sky.net> wrote:
>
>>Stating the obvious. But one of the following is most likely true:
>---
>As usual, you've got it all figured out. Let's just stop doing
>everything since you've got all the answers.
>
>>A) There is no one out there.
>>
>>B) There is someone out there, but we never detect them. That is the
>>same as A).
>>
>>B) There is someone out there, and we detect their presence. But they
>>are so far away that we will never interact with them. This, too, is
>>functionally the same as A); such a result would satisfy many peoples'
>>curiosity and set the Mormons to converting the aliens, but it would
>>have no practical value. It would also give rise to a class of
>>conspiracy theorists such as we have never seen before.
>---
>It would also set off your circle-jerk friends, the Dumbocrats, in
>pursuit of the alien vote. "I feel your alienation from mainstream
>Dumbocrat thought."
>
>" We must not allow these potential voters to be intimidated into not
>voting by the Republicans, merely because they're 80,000 light years
>away."
>
>T. Bloompaster Weatherford
James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net
Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 09:30:33
From: AM
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
Jim Klein wrote:
> we have to convince ET not to either shoot us or eat us.?
If our own past record of interaction with primitive
cultures is any example, if and when ET ever shows up,
we are history. No culture/race/species is going to expend
the resources to get here and not want something for it.
Think about that...
You better pray ET, dosnt find us anytime soon........
--
AM
http://sctuser.home.comcast.net
CentOS 4.3 KDE 3.3
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 18:55:33
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Point very well presented.
Remember the Twilight Zone Episode, "To Serve Man"?
It was a cook book. :-)
Jim
AM <sctuser@comcast.net > wrote:
>Jim Klein wrote:
>
>> we have to convince ET not to either shoot us or eat us.?
>
>
>If our own past record of interaction with primitive
>cultures is any example, if and when ET ever shows up,
>we are history. No culture/race/species is going to expend
>the resources to get here and not want something for it.
>Think about that...
>
>You better pray ET, dosnt find us anytime soon........
James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net
Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121
|
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 16:12:41
From: Bert Hyman
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
chris.b@mail.dk (Chris.B) wrote in
news:1162424993.184508.171550@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
Sure.
--
Bert Hyman
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 15:35:41
From: Chris.B
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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AustinMN wrote:
>
> For the record, I doubt that we will ever detect anyone out there. But
> I am not so intellectually or scientifically arrogant as to say there
> is no one out there, or that we will never detect anyone, or that we
> are doing everything right in the search. There is a part of me that
> hopes I don't have to deal with the results of a successful detection.
> But there is a part of me that would be deeply moved and excited if we
> did. We are a curious species, and to deny the exercise of that
> curiosity is to deny who we are.
>
> Austin
It is not just matter of our radio signals radiating outwards over
such a short period historically. It is the very brevity of the time
involved in comparison with the intolerable age of the universe. Time
is the critical factor. If you need to interact with "other aliens" you
need time travel to be able to "home in" on a species' in their post
technological renaissance. Which would ideally be shortly after they
have overcome the inevitable crises of potential global destruction of
all sentient life on their own planet. The chance of the simultaneous
meeting of two intelligent species at a roughly similar level of
development is so unlikely as to be totally dismissed. We, or they, may
have to constantly move the goalposts (by time travel) simply to be
able to meet other species on a similar footing. If the development
mismatch is too great then the "gods" would be casting their priceless
pearls of wisdom before "swine". We would simply not have the materials
or technology to copy their most basic ideas. Can we go to Africa and
offer a village tribal elder the drawings of a supersonic jet aircraft
and expect any useful progress? Can he share any wisdom with us that we
would consider remotely useful? Are we sufficiently developed ourselves
to have the patience to listen to his words? (Assuming we had the
remotest idea as to what he was saying without an interpreter) Who will
interpret for us if the Vulcans do come bearing gifts? We cannot even
communicate with other intelligent species with which we have shared
our own planet for millions of years. In fact we still actively seek
them out for slaughter. Will we be able to directly communicate in
Chimpanzee, Orang, Elephant, Dolphin, Whale or the lost tribes of the
Amazon before the last of them perish at our own hands? Might this be
the tragically simple test that "aliens" set before attempting direct
communication with us in order to share their priceless gifts? Perhaps
our right of passage is dependent on our setting our own world in order
before they take us gently by the hand and guide us into their
universe? I can only suggest that their patience must be infinite.
(even with time travel at their disposal)
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 10:48:12
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
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Davoud wrote:
> Davoud:
> > > But we still use radio.
>
> AustinMN:
> > We use it, but the things you mentioned, and some other things, such as
> > satellite, are the beginning of the end for the very high power
> > broadcasts of the type that SETI relies on being able to detect.
>
> But the signals from the high-power radio stage of our civilization are
> still traveling outward, are they not?
Yes. And anyone in a relatively fixed location (such as on a planet)
will only be able to detect them 1) as long as they can be picked out
of the background noise (which is not infinite - there comes a point
where the signals are just too weak) and 2) for the length of time we
actually create them. So if someone out there created detectible radio
waves for 200 years, that is the whole length of time we would be able
to hear them. If it was 1,000-800 years ago (our time), then we missed
the boat, and short of space travel exceeding then speed of light, (or
they start using radio again) we won't get it back.
> > Human scientific knowledge is still increasing exponentially;
> A bit of hyperbole there, I would say.
Not in the least. It really is; it is only ignorance or the same kind
of arrogance that opposed Galleleio that says otherwise. Remember, we
were going to close the U.S. Patent office somewhere just over a
century ago because everything had been invented. The fields in which
rapid advances are made change from time to time, but the rate of new
knowledge is increasing faster than ever before, with no visible end in
sight.
> > > If the supposed ET's obey the laws of physics
> > > that we obey, and if they are sufficiently advanced, they /probably/
> > > use radio.
> >
> > We used to use smoke, because in the right conditions it travelled
> > faster and farther than running or shouting.
>
> A bit of sloppiness.
How?
> Communication by smoke signal does not depend on
> the smoke traveling anywhere but upward;
Nor did I say otherwise. I know how smoke signals worked. You could
see them from a long ways off (sometimes miles) if weather and
day/night conditions were right.
> the /signal/ travels at the
> speed of light.
Sounds faster than running or shouting to me.
> The Church of Rome still communicates via smoke
> signals, by the way.
So? People still talk, too.
What do we do with those smoke signals? We turn them in to television
signals and beam them around the world.
> > We used to use wired telephones, because it was better than writing
> > letters.
>
> The vast majority of telephones are connected by copper wire.
The vast majority 15 years ago. In many parts of the world, if you own
a phone, it is a cell phone, because there are no wires (cell towers
notwithstanding). In my family, there are seven people with a total of
eight phones. Two of them are connected by wire (25%). While I may
not be typical, we're either close to 50% wireless or over that in the
U.S. Even many of the wired phones are cordless. Developing countries
are typically 80-95% cell phnes.
> > Is there something out there? I don't know. Maybe, manybe not. Does
> > lack of SETI results mean there isn't? Absolutely not.
>
> Stating the obvious. But one of the following is most likely true:
>
> A) There is no one out there.
>
> B) There is someone out there, but we never detect them. That is the
> same as A).
My troll-o-meter is ticking on this statement...
"There are no fish in the pond." is not the same as "I've never caught
a fish in the pond." Not the same thing at all, nor does it mean I
never will catch a fish in the pond (unless I refuse to try).
> B) There is someone out there, and we detect their presence. But they
> are so far away that we will never interact with them.
Are you sure that we will never harness dark energy? Are you sure dark
energy is bound to the laws of physics we are now familiar with?
> This, too, is
> functionally the same as A); such a result would satisfy many peoples'
> curiosity and set the Mormons to converting the aliens, but it would
> have no practical value.
Troll-o-meter is really starting to buzz...reset again...
Because we could not interact with them by radio on a real-time basis
does not mean we could not interact with them. We could, in fact, send
them huge volumes about our world, the species that live here, our art,
history, and our technology. Whether they hear it is up to them. In
the mean time, we could set about trying to resolve their means of
communication (be it talking or whatever) and learning what we could
about them from their broadcasts (whether directed at us or not). The
fact that such interaction may take a lifetime (or several lifetimes)
or longer does not mean that it could not or would not take place.
> It would also give rise to a class of
> conspiracy theorists such as we have never seen before.
Indeed it would. But it would impact us in other ways. What
technologies might they have that we had never even thought of? How do
they choose to govern themselves? Do they need to be governed? What
kind of history do they have? Learning from an alien species would
likely challenge us in ways that we can't even imagine. It may be a
one-way interaction, but it would certanly take place.
For the record, I doubt that we will ever detect anyone out there. But
I am not so intellectually or scientifically arrogant as to say there
is no one out there, or that we will never detect anyone, or that we
are doing everything right in the search. There is a part of me that
hopes I don't have to deal with the results of a successful detection.
But there is a part of me that would be deeply moved and excited if we
did. We are a curious species, and to deny the exercise of that
curiosity is to deny who we are.
Austin
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 03:20:57
From:
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
Rich wrote:
<edited >
>
> If there were time travelers amongst us, how would they hide the fact
> they came from a time way beyond ours?
The bigger question is: How could a time traveler visit from the
future when, at any given time, the future hasn't happened yet?
<edited >
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Date: 04 Nov 2006 00:43:58
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Forget SETI look for time travellers?
|
Chris.B wrote:
> Humour me if you have it in your capacity.
>
> Nobody has ever shown the concrete existence of UFOs, aliens or their
> artifacts. Yet too many have seen supposedly non-human, flying objects
> to easily dismiss them out of hand.
>
> Years have passed without a single example of an alien "Neighbours"
> being detected by SETI. This despite the potentially vast number of
> potentially habitable worlds orbiting stars near and far.
>
> It could be argued that no alien would dare set foot on our virus and
> bacteria riddled world without great risk to us or themselves. Even a
> remote risk of crashing might wipe out all life on our planet with a
> deadly virus for which we have developed no immunity.
>
> Much the same could be said for time travellers. Though their absence
> could be because there is literally nobody with a technological
> capability in our future. Or time travel really is impossible.
>
> Fuzzy logic suggests that time travel is absolutely necessary to
> truncate journey time between bodies in space even in the local area.
>
> No time travel = no space travel seems too harsh a sentence on an
> aggressive species like ourselves looking for further victims to
> exploit. Can so many science fiction authors be so wrong?
If there were time travelers amongst us, how would they hide the fact
they came from a time way beyond ours? Language changes from decade to
decade, speech patterns change every 40 or 50 years. How could they
hide it? "Universal translators?" Or merely being as good at hiding
their future orgins as British actors are at supressing their accents
now?
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