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Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:32:22
From: beowulf@nowhere.net
Subject: a question about milky way and constellations
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ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.? That seems like
a valid question any curious star gazer should want to know, I know I
do. Is there some star map of a sort that shows our galaxy, location
of earth in it, and the direction relative to earth and the galaxy of
the constellations? That would be interesting to see.
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Date: 27 Aug 2007 10:43:54
From: Jack
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 10:32 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
> galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.? That seems like
> a valid question any curious star gazer should want to know, I know I
> do. Is there some star map of a sort that shows our galaxy, location
> of earth in it, and the direction relative to earth and the galaxy of
> the constellations? That would be interesting to see.
Look for the book "Binocular Astronomy" by Crossin & Tirion at your
local library or buy it.
It has a chapter on exactly what you are looking for.
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Date: 10 Aug 2007 12:47:49
From: beowulf@nowhere.net
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 9, 4:26 pm, canopus56 <canopu...@yahoo.com > wrote:
....
Thank you all for the great references, books, links, software
mentions, I have some research cut out for me but at least I now have
some specific resources to go for.
Randall (Beowulf)
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 14:26:33
From: canopus56
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 3:12 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com > wrote:
<snip >
> But in what direction, from earth along that plane? Seems there would
> be a market for someone to write a 3D interactive map of the galaxy,
> with stars and such in 3D, man that would be nice.
In addition to the reference to the Powell's _Atlas of Universe_
website discussed above, such software does exist (subject to the
uncertainty of position limitation mentioned by Greg). See the Hayden
Planetarium's _Digital Universe_ freeware.
http://haydenplanetarium.org/universe/
It's difficult to install and use java based application, but it gets
the job done with a schematic type display.
See also my humble amateur effort in VRML at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/Clarkxref/ClarkXrefProject.html
- Canopus56
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 11:40:42
From: canopus56
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 2:32 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com > wrote:
<snip >
> i mean, when i see
> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
> galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.?
Mellinger's Virtual Reality MilkyWay Galaxy will help you pair up
those constellations with the band of the Milky Way's disk and the
core of the Milky Way.
http://canopus.physik.uni-potsdam.de/~axm/mwpan_vr.html
Most planisphere wheels have the outline of the Milky Way printed on
them.
In addition to the many good recommendations listed above in this
thread, I'd add Tirion's _Binocular Astronomy_. It has sections
describing each arm of the Milky Way as it can be seen during each
season.
http://www.willbell.com/handbook/hand2.htm
Another excellent out-of-print book that can sometimes be found in
libraries is _The Guide to the Galaxy_ Cambridge University Press 1994
by Heather Couper and Nigel Henbest. This runs through objects that
are visible in each galactic arm.
Presently, we are entering August - the "Grand Display" month, in
which the spinward disk of the Milky Way from the Galactic Core are
seen _through_ the nearby stars in Sagittarius, Cygnus and ending at
Perseus Double Cluster between Cass and Perseus.
Taking the galactic core at the 0 deg point and tracing a 120 deg arc
from Sag, to Aql, to Cyg (90 degs from Sag), thence to Cass and
Perseus, you are looking at the spinward direction of arms of the
Milky Way spiral galaxy. The problem interpreting this are a 3-D
object is that everything is so distant you have no depth perception.
A northern hemisphere view of the horizon looks something like this -
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/Clarkxref/img/OrbitAE_9PM.jpg
- with the Milky Way's disk about 30-40 degrees above the eastern
horizon at 9 pm.
The anti-galactic center (180 degs from Sag) in the direction of the
constellation Orion is under your feet, now behind the Earth.
You are embedded inside and are surrounded by the Orion-Cygnus Arm.
Most of the bright stars that you see are a halo of stars within 400
parsecs or 1,200 light-years of the Earth.
Looking directly at Sag you are looking through the next arm in from
our Orion-Cygnus Arm - the Sagittarius Arm and towards the galactic
core.
Along our 120 deg arc from Sag to Aql (at 20 to 30 degs from the
core), you are also looking down the spinward direction of the
Sagittarius-Carina Arm. The next arm in towards the galactic core in
this same direction is the Scutum-Crux Arm. Almost no objects that
are visible in amateur class telescopes can be seen in the Scutum-Crux
Arm.
The outer edge of the core of the Milky Way can be seen in M24, the
Small Sagittarius Star Cloud. This is really just a hole in the
clouds in the Sagittarius and Scutum Arms that are letting part of the
bright galactic core peak through.
http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m024.html
http://www.library.gatech.edu/Barnard_Project_W/plate/Bar-pt1-pl027_sm.jpg
>From Aql through Cygnus (40 degs to 90 degs from the galactic core in
Sag), you are looking down the spinward side of our Orion Cygnus
Arm.
The solar system's apparent direction of travel is at an oblique angle
relative to the galactic disk. You are moving "up" of out the galactic
plane towards a point in the constellation Hercules - that sits above
the galactic plane. This is called the solar apex.
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/Clarkxref/img/SolarApexPM.jpg
The true motion of the solar system (as opposed to its apparent
motion) is somewhat different. The solar system moves in a wave
pattern in a direction that is out of the galactic plane, but over
time, gravity pulls it back in towards the galactic plane. Because
the solar system is orbiting in a spinning disk, the true motion of
the solar system is towards Aql, not Hercules.
When you look towards Cygnus and down the spinward direction of the
Orion Arm, your view is blocked by large gas clouds between 250 and
750 parsecs distant (about 750 and 2,000 light-years). Supernovae
have evacuated cavities or "cells" inside these clouds. Deneb (alf
Cyg) above the Great Cygnus Drift and Northern Coalsack is an
example.
Along the arc from the galactic core lies Cass and Perseus at about
120 to 130 degrees from the core. Here, you are looking at an oblique
angle out the spinward side of the Perseus Arm. The Perseus Arm is
the next galactic arm outside of the Cygnus-Orion Arm - away from the
galactic center. The showcase Perseus Double cluster are open
clusters that are exiting the "inside" of the gas wall of the Perseus
Arm.
http://www.seds.org/messier/xtra/ngc/n0869.html
Since you are looking "out" of the galactic disk, note that the bright
star clouds found in Cygnus, Scutum and Sagittarius are no longer
seen. The "Milky Way" appears thinner and dimmer. There is less star
formation going in the outer arms.
When Orion swings around into view next fall, you will be looking
through Orion and towards the inside edge of the outer Perseus Arm.
Orion is located 180 degrees from the galactic core in Sag.
Also note that the two great star forming clouds in our local part of
the galaxy - M42 in Orion and M8 in Sagittarius are located about 180
degrees apart. M8, the Lagoon nebula is embedded in the "back" or
"outside" of the next arm in - the Sagittarius-Carinia Arm. M42 - the
Great Orion Nebula - is in a cloud between the Orion and Perseus
Arms.
http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m042.html
http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m008.html
Hope that helps. - Canopus56
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:43:53
From: Davoud
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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beowulf@nowhere.net:
> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> galaxy...
Where is M13? <http://www.thinkastronomy.com/M13/index.html > is now a
free download for Mac, Linux, and Windoze. It used to cost $19.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
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Date: 26 Aug 2007 04:32:09
From: Bill Tschumy
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 16:43:53 -0500, Davoud wrote
(in article <080820071743515407%star@sky.net >):
> beowulf@nowhere.net:
>
>> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
>> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
>> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
>> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
>> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
>> galaxy...
>
> Where is M13? <http://www.thinkastronomy.com/M13/index.html> is now a
> free download for Mac, Linux, and Windoze. It used to cost $19.
>
> Davoud
>
>
I can second Davoud's suggestion of using "Where is M13?". It was designed
specifically to answer these sorts of questions. But then I'm biased since I
wrote it ;-)
--
Bill Tschumy
Think Astronomy -- Austin, TX
http://www.thinkastronomy.com
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 14:28:30
From: Bill Hudson
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 2:12 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 8, 4:06 pm, Bill Hudson <oldgeek61-...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... For both
>
> > Cassiopeia and Cygnus, you are looking pretty much along the galactic
> > plane. ...
>
> But in what direction, from earth along that plane? Seems there would
> be a market for someone to write a 3D interactive map of the galaxy,
> with stars and such in 3D, man that would be nice. Any software
> developers out there looking for a new product idea?
I don't know if this is really what you're looking for but you might
check out Stellarium http://www.stellarium.org/
and Celestia http://shatters.net/celestia/
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 14:23:32
From: Bill Hudson
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 2:09 pm, Iordani <somewh...@earth.net > wrote:
> beow...@nowhere.net wrote:
> > ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> > those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> > constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> > looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
> > casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> > galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
> > galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.? That seems like
> > a valid question any curious star gazer should want to know, I know I
> > do. Is there some star map of a sort that shows our galaxy, location
> > of earth in it, and the direction relative to earth and the galaxy of
> > the constellations? That would be interesting to see.
>
> Center of Milky Way is said to be close to the constellation Sagittarius.
> The opposite direction would then be somewhere around Auriga (I think)
Pretty close! Sgr A * is at 17h 45m 40.04s 29=B0 00 28.1 , so the
reciprocal bearing would be 12h less and reversed sign on the
declination, or 5h 45m 40.04s +29=B0 00 28.1 , so right near the Auriga/
Gemini/Taurus borders.
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:12:28
From: beowulf@nowhere.net
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 4:06 pm, Bill Hudson <oldgeek61-...@yahoo.com > wrote:
... For both
> Cassiopeia and Cygnus, you are looking pretty much along the galactic
> plane. ...
But in what direction, from earth along that plane? Seems there would
be a market for someone to write a 3D interactive map of the galaxy,
with stars and such in 3D, man that would be nice. Any software
developers out there looking for a new product idea?
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 14:50:26
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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beowulf@nowhere.net wrote:
> On Aug 8, 4:06 pm, Bill Hudson <oldgeek61-...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... For both
>> Cassiopeia and Cygnus, you are looking pretty much along the galactic
>> plane. ...
>
> But in what direction, from earth along that plane? Seems there would
> be a market for someone to write a 3D interactive map of the galaxy,
> with stars and such in 3D, man that would be nice. Any software
> developers out there looking for a new product idea?
Unfortunately that's not possible (without cheating) because the
distances to the vast majority of stars are very poorly known. Not only
that, but most of what we see in the sky is only a small portion of the
galaxy. People have written this sort of software, but the fundamental
limitations in the available data leave them far less interesting than
you would expect.
Clear skies,
Greg
--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://comets.skyhound.com
To reply take out your eye
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:37:19
From: Craig
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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Ahhh you need to check out Celestia at shatters.net/celestia . It will
let you go to any star in the sky and see ththe view from there. What
you will want to do is set it to show the orbits of the planets, move
around until you are looking at the solar system from the above (N) and
then zoom out to the overview of the milky way. Then while in that view
rotate the view so you see the galaxy edge on and then zoom in again.
You will get a very good idea of the solar system's orientation to the
plane of the galaxy as well as where things are in the galaxy.
--
Remove My_Skin to E-mail me.
beowulf@nowhere.net wrothe:
> On Aug 8, 4:06 pm, Bill Hudson <oldgeek61-...@yahoo.com> wrothe:
> ... For both
> > Cassiopeia and Cygnus, you are looking pretty much along the
> > galactic plane. ...
>
> But in what direction, from earth along that plane? Seems there would
> be a market for someone to writhe a 3D intheractive map of the galaxy,
> with stars and such in 3D, man that would be nice. Any software
> developers out there looking for a new product idea?
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:10:29
From: beowulf@nowhere.net
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 4:06 pm, Bill Hudson <oldgeek61-...@yahoo.com > wrote:
...
> The position of the constellations doesn't make much sense in 3D
> space, because the constellations are really bright stars that are
> close to each other only from our viewpoint. The constellations are
> composed of stars that are not associated with each other. ...
But all the stars of a constellation, or one could speak of the
constellation itself, has to be "out there" in some linear direction
away from earth, in some relationship to the galaxy center. That is
what I am trying to reason out. Typical star charts do not speak of
that, at least the cheap books I have. So it does help when you say
Sagittarius is towards the center of out galaxy, from earth, that
makes sense to me then when I see the constellation in the sky.
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:32:43
From: William Hamblen
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:10:29 -0000, "beowulf@nowhere.net"
<r.oelerich@gmail.com > wrote:
>But all the stars of a constellation, or one could speak of the
>constellation itself, has to be "out there" in some linear direction
>away from earth, in some relationship to the galaxy center. That is
>what I am trying to reason out. Typical star charts do not speak of
>that, at least the cheap books I have. So it does help when you say
>Sagittarius is towards the center of out galaxy, from earth, that
>makes sense to me then when I see the constellation in the sky.
Get a copy of Guy Ottewell's "Astronomical Companion" from
http://www.universalworkshop.com/
It shows exactly what you are looking for, and much more.
Bud
--
The night is just the shadow of the Earth.
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Date: 09 Aug 2007 07:09:24
From: Esmail
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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William Hamblen wrote:
>
> Get a copy of Guy Ottewell's "Astronomical Companion" from
>
> http://www.universalworkshop.com/
>
> It shows exactly what you are looking for, and much more.
>
> Bud
This looks like an interesting book (and quite reasonably price).
I hadn't heard about it, thanks for posting the link.
Esmail
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:09:49
From: Iordani
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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beowulf@nowhere.net wrote:
> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
> galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.? That seems like
> a valid question any curious star gazer should want to know, I know I
> do. Is there some star map of a sort that shows our galaxy, location
> of earth in it, and the direction relative to earth and the galaxy of
> the constellations? That would be interesting to see.
Center of Milky Way is said to be close to the constellation Sagittarius.
The opposite direction would then be somewhere around Auriga (I think)
You may find this link interesting.
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/
Gives an idea at least. And points out we are not just looking in a
direction, we are at the same time looking backwards in time... Andromeda
Galaxy is an example of some 2.7 million years backwards (light years away)
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 16:12:23
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 23:09:49 +0200, Iordani <somewhere@earth.net > wrote:
>Center of Milky Way is said to be close to the constellation Sagittarius.
Also worth pointing out that compared with the distance to the center of
the Milky Way, all of the stars that make up the visible constellation
of Sagittarius are very close. When we look at the center of the Milky
Way, we are really looking _through_ Sagittarius.
Saying that the center of the galaxy is in Sagittarius, while completely
correct in normal usage, might also be confusing to some beginners.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 14:06:21
From: Bill Hudson
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 1:32 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com > wrote:
> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy? i mean, when i see
> casseopia, or cygnus, *where* am i looking in terms of earth and the
> galaxy? Am i looking towards the center of the galaxy? away from the
> galaxy center but through our arm of the galaxy, etc.? That seems like
> a valid question any curious star gazer should want to know, I know I
> do. Is there some star map of a sort that shows our galaxy, location
> of earth in it, and the direction relative to earth and the galaxy of
> the constellations? That would be interesting to see.
The center of the milky way galaxy is in Sagittarius. For both
Cassiopeia and Cygnus, you are looking pretty much along the galactic
plane. The galactic plane (starting from the galactic center) follows
a line from Sagittarius through Aquila, Cygnus, Cepheus, Cassiopeia,
Perseus, Auriga, Gemini, Orion, Monoceros, Canis Major, Puppis, Vela,
Carnia, Crux, Musca, Circinus, Norma, Scorpius and then back to
Sagittarius. Some of these are only visible from the Northern
Hemisphere, and some are only visible from the Southern Hemisphere.
The position of the constellations doesn't make much sense in 3D
space, because the constellations are really bright stars that are
close to each other only from our viewpoint. The constellations are
composed of stars that are not associated with each other. Some of
the bright stars only appear bright because they are close to us (like
Alpha Centauri at 4.8ly) , while some are very far away, but are very
large, therefore very bright (like Rigel in Orion, 775 ly away).
You might be interested in this site: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/index.html
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Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:47:59
From: beowulf@nowhere.net
Subject: Re: a question about milky way and constellations
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On Aug 8, 3:32 pm, "beow...@nowhere.net" <r.oeler...@gmail.com > wrote:
> ok so as I look up at the constellations in the sky, specifically
> those that the milky way galaxy goes through, or really any
> constellations, i am asking myself what direction in space am i
> looking with respect to our milky way galaxy?...
Some research/googling and I found a few sites; this is along the
lines of what I am looking to discover. I just want to know where or
in what direction a star or constellion is in relation to our sun, in
terms of our galaxy. Of course for a constellation there are many
stars spread out in space, but all in some general direction--and I
want to know in what direction.
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/milkyway.html
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/milkyway2.jpg [unlabled]
Perhaps the next site is the most detailed, albeit zoomed in on just
our sector, but from it I think the direction of some stars and
objects can be deduced:
http://www.sslmit.unibo.it/zat/images/cartography/M-Way_2.htm
http://www.ras.ucalgary.ca/CGPS/where/plan/plan_basic_big.gif
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