Would Like Advice on Binoculars

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Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:20:33
From: NJ Charlie
Subject: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars. I've
had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which I
bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so I
need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but neither
are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.

The 7x50s have just fallen apart for the second time and are now good for
only the trash can.

I now want to spend $100 to $300 to get a better pair. I've long thought
that 7x50 was the gold standard for grab and hand hold astronomy binoculars,
but the research I have done leaves me uncertain. For one thing, some
articles say that the 7+ mm exit pupil these give is too big for my 71 year
old eyes. These articles say I should be looking for 5 mm exit pupil as the
light would be wasted with anything bigger.

I was looking forward to the October S&T article on binoculars but was
disappointed with it. It pretty much pushes 10x50s but then goes on to say
a tripod or similar support is really needed at that magnification. The
subject of exit pupil and eye relief never come up.

Please give me some insight on this. Should I be looking at 7x50s or 8x42s?
I live in NJ close enough to Philadelphia to have a badly light polluted
sky. My desire is to be able to spot dim objects such as Vesta, Uranus, and
Neptune; and pick Mercury and other objects out of the twilight.

What manufacturers/distributors should I be considering or avoiding?.
Orion's catalog has some promising ones but I'm not sure of their quality.

Thanks in advance.

Charlie

Date: 04 Sep 2007 09:27:31
From: Jack
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

On Sep 1, 8:20 pm, "NJ Charlie" <nas...@verizon.net > wrote:

> I now want to spend $100 to $300 to get a better pair.

> These articles say I should be looking for 5 mm exit pupil as the
> light would be wasted with anything bigger.

> Should I be looking at 7x50s or 8x42s?
> I live in NJ close enough to Philadelphia to have a badly light polluted
> sky. My desire is to be able to spot dim objects such as Vesta, Uranus, and
> Neptune; and pick Mercury and other objects out of the twilight.

Hi Charlie

I would recommend the Pentax PCF-WP 8x40.

They satisfy your 5 mm exit pupil requirement, have fully multi-coated
optics, a 20 millimeter eye relief, are easy to hand-hold and are
weather-proof.

Amazon sells the Pentax 8x40 PCF WP II for $126.49.
For this kind of money you get very good images and the overall build
quality is way above average.

10x50's are better for faint objects in light polluted skies but their
size, weight and wobbly images (when used without a tripod) offsets
the gain in aperture.

8x40's are also ideal for bird watching, game viewing, etc.

PS : I wonder what the Pentax 8x43 DCF ED is like for $900?

--

10" Starfinder Dob
William Optics ZenithStar 80II ED
Nikon 10x50
Pentax 8x40PCF-WP

Date: 02 Sep 2007 07:19:12
From:
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

Date: 02 Sep 2007 07:12:48
From:
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

> I was looking forward to the October S&T article on binoculars but was
> disappointed with it. It pretty much pushes 10x50s but then goes on to say
> a tripod or similar support is really needed at that magnification. The
> subject of exit pupil and eye relief never come up.
>
> Please give me some insight on this. Should I be looking at 7x50s or 8x42s?

There is an old rule of thumb that says multiplying the mag by the
aperture is a way to compare binoculars in terms of what you might be
able to see through each, all else being equal. 7x50s would act as
7x35s, if you had a 5mm pupil, and by comparing 7x35 (=245) with 10x50
(=500) you can probably expect a big improvement just by going from 7x
to 10x with 50mm binoculars, with probably little or maybe even no
reduction in true field of view.

If you really have 5mm pupil size, then for use in astronomy, I
recommend you try out some 10x50s that have a wide apparent field of
view (65 degrees or more) and excellent lens coatings. Anything larger
or more powerful will probably need a mount or tripod, in which case a
small, short-focus telescope might be more versatile, easier to use
and possibly cheaper. Adequate eye relief is another important
feature especially if you must wear glasses while observing, but I
have noticed that eye-relief often tends to be inversely proportional
to AFOV (AFOV is a feature I consider to be much more important.)

I have an old pair of cheap 10x50s (< $50) that seem to be a good
value in that price range. $100 10x50s would be noticeably better.
At $300, shop carefully, you are now in small scope territory!

Date: 02 Sep 2007 09:15:14
From: George
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

NJ Charlie wrote:
> I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars. I've
> had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which I

I am also an old timer, in fact there is a photo of me (with 7x50) and
friends observing from a Brooklyn,NY rooftop in Life Magazine (1950's).

Also have a 20x80, seemed OK years ago but no better than current 8.5x44
Swift Audubon as far as light gathering power so I don't even use it
(the increase in magnification is nice but weight and lack of field
makes such a toy almost useless. I compared the two recently.

The Audubon has a good field but only the center 5 degrees is sharp. If
you are looking for a Nagler quality I think you may have to spend a
$1000. I had expected better optics with the ED glass provided.

Do not get higher power than 8.5 for any hand held binocular unless
image stabilized (I never tried one).

If you find your answer, act upon it, and are satisfied please let me
and this newsgroup know. Good luck.

Date: 02 Sep 2007 14:57:09
From: Florian
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

> Do not get higher power than 8.5 for any hand held binocular unless
> image stabilized (I never tried one).

This would vary by the user. It also depends on how you might be bracing
yourself. I'm quite comfortable handholding my 10x42 binoculars. Just
standing without any support of course there is movement. But one also
learns to see details even in an unsteady image. Reclining in a lounge
chair or bracing my elbows on a support can provide quite steady images at
10x and above.

.Florian

Date: 02 Sep 2007 20:41:16
From: John Nichols
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

"Florian" <star6@seeyouinthedark.com > wrote in message
news:Xns999F50DD4E559star6seeyouinthedark@66.250.146.128...
>> Do not get higher power than 8.5 for any hand held binocular unless
>> image stabilized (I never tried one).
>
>
> This would vary by the user. It also depends on how you might be bracing
> yourself. I'm quite comfortable handholding my 10x42 binoculars. Just
> standing without any support of course there is movement. But one also
> learns to see details even in an unsteady image. Reclining in a lounge
> chair or bracing my elbows on a support can provide quite steady images at
> 10x and above.
>
> .Florian
>

Absolutely. During Tuesday's eclipse I used my 16x50 binoculars while
braced against my club's observatory. The Moon was quite steady this way
and I really enjoyed the view.

Date: 02 Sep 2007 16:06:25
From: Brian Tung
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

John Nichols wrote:
> Absolutely. During Tuesday's eclipse I used my 16x50 binoculars while
> braced against my club's observatory. The Moon was quite steady this way
> and I really enjoyed the view.

Mileages vary, obviously. However, I must say that in my personal
experience, the image stabilization of the Canon 10x30 IS is pretty
darned useful. I find I see considerably more detail, with considerably
greater ease, than I do with my Celestron Pro 10x50. It allows me to
split equal doubles down to maybe 10 arcseconds or so. (Haven't tried
any tighter than that, but I imagine it'd be pretty tough.)

--
Brian Tung <brian@isi.edu >
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html

Date: 01 Sep 2007 19:23:00
From: Mark D
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

Charlie, It sounds to me that you are essentially going down the correct
path, in what to look for.

Reading just the one S+T Article, is like watching one episode of The
Sopranos, and knowing what exactly is going on.

Over the countless years, S+T of course has done more than just this one
particluar article about Binos. Perhaps they chose a new approach this
time, wishing not to repeat previous articles, and by happenstance, left
out important considerations.

A Binocular can serve dual purpose for nature, etc, as well as
Astro-Use, and I've seen good Binocs which performed well during daytime
use, fall somwhat on thier face for Asto-Use.

Astro will be the ultimate test. Sometimes, Astigmatism in our own eyes
can be the flaw, and not the Bino itself. Better lens quality will offer
better views, better color rendition, sharper images.

I do highly recommend sticking with good name brands, (Fujinon if you
can afford it, Nikon, Canon, Swarovski to name a few) and a good dealer,
who will let you return any which you are not ultimately satisfied with
for full exchange-refund. Hope this helps, and best of luck in your
search. Mark

Date: 01 Sep 2007 12:40:15
From:
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

On Sep 1, 12:20 pm, "NJ Charlie" <nas...@verizon.net > wrote:
> I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars. I've
> had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which I
> bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so I
> need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but neither
> are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.

Hi Charlie,

A stable tripod/mount would be *very* helpful with any binocular when
it comes to the observation of small-scale details such as Jupiter's
family of moons.

> The 7x50s have just fallen apart for the second time and are now good for
> only the trash can.

Defunct 7x50s are good for parts! The objective in my homemade 50mm
finder is from an old pair of 7x50s. I made a 1.25" telescope
eyepiece out of one of the binocular eyepieces.

> I now want to spend $100 to $300 to get a better pair. I've long thought
> that 7x50 was the gold standard for grab and hand hold astronomy binoculars,
> but the research I have done leaves me uncertain. For one thing, some
> articles say that the 7+ mm exit pupil these give is too big for my 71 year
> old eyes. These articles say I should be looking for 5 mm exit pupil as the
> light would be wasted with anything bigger.

Those articles are correct.

> I was looking forward to the October S&T article on binoculars but was
> disappointed with it. It pretty much pushes 10x50s but then goes on to say
> a tripod or similar support is really needed at that magnification. The
> subject of exit pupil and eye relief never come up.

I've not seen the S&T article. It is somewhat surprising the subjects
of exit pupil and eye relief never came up. Both can be important
considerations in binocular selection.

> Please give me some insight on this. Should I be looking at 7x50s or 8x42s?
> I live in NJ close enough to Philadelphia to have a badly light polluted
> sky. My desire is to be able to spot dim objects such as Vesta, Uranus, and
> Neptune; and pick Mercury and other objects out of the twilight.

I'm now a gray-bearded amateur. I prefer my 8x42s (a pair of Orion
UltraViews that are several years old) over my old (now dismantled)
7x50s as well as over a current (won as a door prize at a starparty)
pair of 7x50s. The added magnification of the 8x42s is a greater
asset than one might at first suspect. The added aperture of the
7x50s (considering the 7mm exit pupil) will most likely be *totally*
useless for your eyes. With 7x50s you would end up carrying a
heavier, bulkier binocular without any balancing assets.

I've seen Uranus and Neptune with 8x42s from my 6.5 magnitude
location; but they're better with 20x80s. From a dark enough location
Uranus is visible to the unaided eye. For observing these outer
planets it helps to use the binoculars with a detailed chart. The
Millennium and Uranometria atlases have served me well with my larger
binoculars and darker sky. Under a more light polluted sky a less
detailed atlas would be better.

> What manufacturers/distributors should I be considering or avoiding?.
> Orion's catalog has some promising ones but I'm not sure of their quality.

I've been happy with my Orion UltraViews. The eye relief permits
comfortable use with or without my eyeglasses.

I've often used binoculars for astronomical observation -- primarily
8x42s, 20x80s, and 25x100s. I recently observed all of the Messier
objects using hand-held 20x80s (It may take a fair amount of practice
for that. I used to use the 20x80s only with a tripod and mount.)
The 8x42s are great for low-powered, hand-held work. 25x100s can be
*briefly* used hand-held (at least by me;-); but a sturdy mount ought
to be considered a necessity for binoculars that are that powerful and
heavy.

I can't say much pertaining to how useful the binoculars will be from
your light polluted location. I'm far more accustomed to using
binculars from darker observing sites.

Bill Greer
To sketch is to see.
http://cejour.blogspot.com/
http://www.rangeweb.net/~sketcher/index.html

Date: 01 Sep 2007 15:05:28
From: Dennis Woos
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

> I now want to spend $100 to $300 to get a better pair. I've long thought
> that 7x50 was the gold standard for grab and hand hold astronomy
> binoculars, but the research I have done leaves me uncertain. For one
> thing, some articles say that the 7+ mm exit pupil these give is too big
> for my 71 year old eyes. These articles say I should be looking for 5 mm
> exit pupil as the light would be wasted with anything bigger.
>
> I was looking forward to the October S&T article on binoculars but was
> disappointed with it. It pretty much pushes 10x50s but then goes on to
> say a tripod or similar support is really needed at that magnification.
> The subject of exit pupil and eye relief never come up.
>
> Please give me some insight on this. Should I be looking at 7x50s or
> 8x42s? I live in NJ close enough to Philadelphia to have a badly light
> polluted sky. My desire is to be able to spot dim objects such as Vesta,
> Uranus, and Neptune; and pick Mercury and other objects out of the
> twilight.
>

I have Celestron 7x50 Ultima binos (now discontinued), and they are
wonderful. It is true that a 7mm exit pupil does mean that the aperture is
effectively reduced to 40mm or even 35mm, depending on how dark adapted I
am. Wasted light? So what - I don't pay per photon, nor is there a tax on
aperture, nor does it contribute to global warming, etc! 10x binos are also
a good choice, but most folks have a problem hand-holding them for astro use
and so they do need a tripod. However, even 7x is more comfortable mounted
for anything more than casual/finder use. I really like this inexpensive
mount, also available in kit form:

http://burgessoptical.com/Mounts/TinyTitanII.html

Dennis

Date: 01 Sep 2007 11:49:24
From: SkySea
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

For $100 - $300, you will be able to get a very nice binocular, but
it's very unlikely you'll find image-stablized in that price range.

As for exit pupil, there is the concept that if a column of light
coming out the back is wider than your pupil, you will be allowed some
lateral slack in where your eyes are while still receiving as much
light as possible. Consider for instance looking around the field of
view - your eyes are moving back and forth at the back of the
binocular even though the binocs are "fixed" relative to your face.
Personally, I LIKE 6+mm exit pupils.

In any case, I strongly recommend acquiring a pair with a tripod
mounting hole so you have the option. And include a binocular bracket
in the purchase ($4 through sciplus.com, but a minimum order is $10.
Buy a few!).

>"NJ Charlie" <nascfr@verizon.net> wrote:
>I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars. I've
>had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which I
>bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so I
>need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but neither
>are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.
>
>The 7x50s have just fallen apart for the second time and are now good for
>only the trash can.
>
>I now want to spend $100 to $300 to get a better pair. I've long thought
>that 7x50 was the gold standard for grab and hand hold astronomy binoculars,
>but the research I have done leaves me uncertain. For one thing, some
>articles say that the 7+ mm exit pupil these give is too big for my 71 year
>old eyes. These articles say I should be looking for 5 mm exit pupil as the
>light would be wasted with anything bigger.
>
>I was looking forward to the October S&T article on binoculars but was
>disappointed with it. It pretty much pushes 10x50s but then goes on to say
>a tripod or similar support is really needed at that magnification. The
>subject of exit pupil and eye relief never come up.
>
>Please give me some insight on this. Should I be looking at 7x50s or 8x42s?
>I live in NJ close enough to Philadelphia to have a badly light polluted
>sky. My desire is to be able to spot dim objects such as Vesta, Uranus, and
>Neptune; and pick Mercury and other objects out of the twilight.
>
>What manufacturers/distributors should I be considering or avoiding?.
>Orion's catalog has some promising ones but I'm not sure of their quality.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
> Charlie
=============
- Dale Gombert (SkySea at aol.com)
122.38W, 47.58N, W. Seattle, WA

Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:46:26
From: Florian
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

Hi Charlie,

I'm in my fifties and find 10x42mm to be just about the perfect handheld
binocular size. Not to heavy that you can't hold them comfortably and
enough power to give satisfying views. The 4.2mm exit pupil fit my eyes
just right. I have the Nikon 10x42 SE and would not part with them. Their
price might be a bit out of your range however. But once you've tried a
pair of high quality binoculars you won't be satisfied with anything else.
They are worth saving up for. ;-)

.Florian

Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:31:20
From: Sam Wormley
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

NJ Charlie wrote:
> I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars. I've
> had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which I
> bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so I
> need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but neither
> are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.
>

Now is the time in your life to treating yourself to modern binoculars
with image stability (IS). It'll be a whole new world!

-Sam

Date: 01 Sep 2007 19:00:30
From: mick
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

Come on!...I can't imagine even tasco binocs not showing Jupiters first four
moons....

> NJ Charlie wrote:
>> I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars.
>> I've had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which
>> I bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so
>> I need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but
>> neither are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.
>>
>
> Now is the time in your life to treating yourself to modern binoculars
> with image stability (IS). It'll be a whole new world!
>
> -Sam

Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:59:06
From: Mik2
Subject: Re: Would Like Advice on Binoculars

Come on!...I can't imagine even tasco binocs not showing Jupiters first four
moons....

"Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:YdiCi.65620$Xa3.10872@attbi_s22...
> NJ Charlie wrote:
>> I'm an old timer at astronomy but never have owned good binoculars.
>> I've had a pair of 8x30s which were given to me years ago and 7x50s which
>> I bought for $50 at a going out of business sale. Both are by Tasco, so
>> I need say no more about their quality. I've had fun with them but
>> neither are sharp enough to even show Jupiter's bright satellites.
>>
>
> Now is the time in your life to treating yourself to modern binoculars
> with image stability (IS). It'll be a whole new world!
>
> -Sam