Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

astronomy-chat.net
Promoting astronomy discussion.

Main

Date: 19 May 2007 09:01:25
From: Rich
Subject: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.

http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml

Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
it so desperately needs.

Date: 21 May 2007 21:58:45
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

Hi,

I've been reading over this thread with great interest. I really
don't get the impression that amateur astronomy is a dying hobby,
there's certainly no lack of public interest in the subject. That's
always good business for any amateur who wants to pull out a telescope
and give a look. I have heard that we're all in something of a "down"
time in the hobby due to not having any "big show" events lately, but
those events can come at any time so we have to stay ready for them.

As for getting new blood, that is indeed a problem. I think my own
difficulty is that I'm very over-optimistic about getting young people
involved. I tried to start a campaign to get the local astronomy club
once again populated with younger members (they used to have a
thriving Junior division), but no one supported the effort. Right now
I'm considering the possibility of giving one-person programs to the
local schools.

Would love to respond to the comments of the neurotic gentleman who
doesn't like atheists, but I prefer talking about astronomy.

Pat
(Astronomy clubless as of midnight tonight)

On May 19, 12:01 pm, Rich <rander3...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
> largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
> planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
> http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
> Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
> no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
> disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
> maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
> parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
> same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
> now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
> like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
> major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
> it so desperately needs.

Date: 22 May 2007 13:56:58
From: Andrew Smallshaw
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On 2007-05-22, patrickimo <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> I've been reading over this thread with great interest. I really
> don't get the impression that amateur astronomy is a dying hobby,
> there's certainly no lack of public interest in the subject. That's
> always good business for any amateur who wants to pull out a telescope
> and give a look. I have heard that we're all in something of a "down"
> time in the hobby due to not having any "big show" events lately, but
> those events can come at any time so we have to stay ready for them.

I believe that there are a few factors that discourage the conversion
from a general interest in matters space-related to an interest in
astronomy. The first is the avalability of toy telescopes for
children. Because of their sheer number these are many people's
first (and only) experience with a telescope. People in general
are not aware of what makes a good scope. My nephew (aged 14 so
not exactly a toddler) recently asked why my telescope needed to
be so big. The is a fairly pitiful 5.1" newt...

Then there's the entry fee for the club - telescopes are expensive.
My newt may not be particulary impressive but it's all I could
afford at the time. Then there's the accessories - I later added
an RA motor drive, coloured and LPR filters, a laser collimator
and a set of Meade series 4000s that cost more than the scope
itself. Together they transform the capability of my scope, but
everything together cost over Ł500 and it's still only a basic set
up.

Finally, there are also raised expectations. People are used to
seeing beautifully resolved images from Hubble and professional
scopes. The faint fuzzies viewed through an amatuer scope bare
no comparison with these. While people know with their heads the
view won't be the same, with their hearts they want to see something
at least similar to what they saw in a magazine or on the Internet.

--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org

Date: 21 May 2007 23:42:40
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

I am a atheists and even the "Church" I kind of dreamed up is from a char.
in a Comic book, and of the 100+ people I saw on a Monday Night at lest 1/2
of them had kids that also looked into the scope to see the moon and Venus,
I'm sure that if I could have made a head count it would have been close to
300, but I just made a metal note of grown ups heads, even the last buch who
got to see the moon with B10 loaded and tied to the wagon had 3 grown ups
and 4 kids with them and one of the Grown ups was a 70year old lady and she
had never even seen a telescope before, so on her 70'th birthday night she
not only saw a true telescope, but she got to see the moon and venus too.
Heck, that made the whole thing worthwhile.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

"patrickimo" <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179809925.366379.299150@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I've been reading over this thread with great interest.

Date: 21 May 2007 08:17:11
From: raven1
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

<snip >

Is there an award for "Usenet Kook of the Millenium"?

Date: 21 May 2007 11:39:25
From: Bill M
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"raven1" <psychedelephant1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179760631.364276.76630@36g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> <snip>
>
> Is there an award for "Usenet Kook of the Millenium"?

IF THERE WAS YOU WOULD GET IT!
>

Date: 21 May 2007 15:51:19
From: raven1
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

On Mon, 21 May 2007 11:39:25 -0400, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net >
wrote:

>
>"raven1" <psychedelephant1@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1179760631.364276.76630@36g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>> <snip>
>>
>> Is there an award for "Usenet Kook of the Millenium"?
>
>IF THERE WAS YOU WOULD GET IT!

Nice sock puppet, Danny.
--

"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"

Date: 21 May 2007 02:08:55
From: KLM
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

funniest damned thing you ever posted - Good Luck!

Rich wrote:

> So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
> largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
> planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
> http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
> Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
> no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
> disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
> maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
> parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
> same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
> now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
> like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
> major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
> it so desperately needs.

Date: 20 May 2007 13:39:13
From: RMOLLISE
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 20, 12:02 pm, John Baker <n...@bizniz.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2007 18:10:03 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio
>
> <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
>
> <snip typical Min idiocy>
>
> You know, I'd almost be willing to pay somebody to find out what ISP
> this piece of shit is using so he can be properly reported.

To whom? Unfortunately, there's no law against being stupid. ;-)

Forget him. That's the worst possible punishment you can give the
silly little thing.

Unk Rod

Date: 20 May 2007 12:09:45
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 20, 7:35 pm, starburst <n...@nospam.net > wrote:
> RMOLLISE wrote:
> > What IS dying? I'm sorry to say that that appears to be s.a.a. The
> > noise level is higher than its ever been, and is beginning to approach
> > that of the parent group--that's my perception anyway. Maybe I'm just
> > misremembering how things were during s.a.a.'s golden age (pre-Yahoo),
> > but that's my perception.
>
> I don't know if it's as bad as sci.astro just yet, but I agree that
> there's a current decline. I don't think it's so much that the noise has
> increased so much as the signal has decreased. The best stuff right now
> seems to be around the photographers like Pete and Anthony, but you can
> only say "brilliant" so many times. Good equipment discussions that used
> to dominate this forum are scarce now. I miss Valery's posts,
> especially, as they combined info, stridency and his astounding grasp of
> English vernacular. I also miss the refractor/reflector arguments. Even
> Shaun's trolls were astro-related. We lost him and gained Oriel. And
> there's very little now on ATMing or upgrading equipment.
>
> Ah well.

No offense but you just gained heliocentric reasoning and the
background cycles to put those images in .What you lost is the
clockwork driven conceptions and the constellational framework as
anything other than observational conveniences.

There is no decline,the magnification side of astronomy (as a
relatively recent astronomical development) would be highly
complimentary in light of the insights of the great astronomers who
did not need them for their working methods or their conclusions but
you attach yourselves to physicists , their 'experimental' agenda and
their silly ideas about planetary retrograde motion and how it is
resolved.

The one exception among you,at least so far, is Mr Tezel who
elevated astro-imaging to a new level insofar as for the first time
astronomers can recognise the orbital motion of the Earth in
isolation from its axial rotation and as the main Copernican argument
for the heliocentric system -

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/jupsatloop_tezel.jpg

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Imaging things in isolation and without cyclical context makes
astronomy a hobby,using a constellational framework makes one a
magnification astrologer.

The real astronomer bring the sense of our particpation in the great
cycles and that is why your idea of astronomy is dying for it does not
do that.

Date: 20 May 2007 11:40:27
From: oriel36
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 20, 6:43 pm, Rich <rander3...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 20, 1:05 am, laura halliday <marsga...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 19, 8:07 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstr...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
> > > >most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
> > > >you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
> > > But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that are
> > > deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur astronomers.
>
> > My own experience is that the Moon gets the oohs and aahs,
> > while anything further afield gets (at best) a polite "that's nice".
> > At worst, "is that it?"
>
> > The notion that you are seeing it live, with your own eye,
> > just doesn't seem to resonate with many people.
>
> You're talking about more the common reaction to things celestial,
> which hasn't changed since day one.

Oh,it certainly has.Your magnification exercise provides no background
to the solar system arena other than a constellational framework,it
lacks any sense of participation in the astronomical cycles and
especially the Earth's own motions which make existence possible.

Nobody here bothers to present those events where the inner planets
overtake our slower moving planet with the central Sun as a
backdrop,last November as Mercury in an inner orbital circuit overtook
our planet there is no hint that this is the most immediate
affirmation of Copernican reasoning for our orbital moton -

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/2003_05_07/mdi_comp.png

When astro-imaging like the 'transit' above should be the greatest
possible asset to heliocentric astronomy,it turns into a
feebleminded affair where the intellectual level does not reach
anything other than 'Mercury crosses the face of the Sun'.

Good kids can easily spot the slower version of the same Copernican
affirmation by using the observed behavior of the outer planets to
explain our orbital motion -

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/jupsatloop_tezel.jpg

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

There must be teachers here who can give their students a chance that
was denied other generations in recognising just how easy it is to
appreciate the motion of the Earth between Venus and Mars using modern
techniques.From the ranks of these student,the great and neccessary
modification for climatological,geological and other purposes will
emerge by putting our participation in celestial motion in proper
context.

The last century represents the dark ages of astronomy ,the revival of
astronomy will not be through bigger telescopes but with the
restoration of the astronomical background where the cycles were first
recognised by Copernicus and refined by Kepler and Roemer.Far from
being some form of dense mathematics,the principles are easily
understood by people who genuinely have an appreciation for what
modern imaging can do.

Astrology allied to magnification is the only thing that is dying,its
flawed celestial sphere background carried many novelistic notions of
time travel,warped space and other exotica but humanity desperately
wants stability at present and proper astronomy can do just that.

But the distractions available to
> younger people now are simply more overwhelming than what was
> available in the past. Remember the Unitron ads showing some kid who
> had forsaken television for a telescope? Not so easy with video
> games, online activities and the abomination of cell phone
> overuse.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Date: 20 May 2007 10:43:03
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 20, 1:05 am, laura halliday <marsga...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On May 19, 8:07 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstr...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
> > >most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
> > >you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
> > But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that are
> > deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur astronomers.
>
> My own experience is that the Moon gets the oohs and aahs,
> while anything further afield gets (at best) a polite "that's nice".
> At worst, "is that it?"
>
> The notion that you are seeing it live, with your own eye,
> just doesn't seem to resonate with many people.
>

You're talking about more the common reaction to things celestial,
which hasn't changed since day one. But the distractions available to
younger people now are simply more overwhelming than what was
available in the past. Remember the Unitron ads showing some kid who
had forsaken television for a telescope? Not so easy with video
games, online activities and the abomination of cell phone
overuse.

Date: 20 May 2007 10:34:51
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 19, 3:38 pm, "Starlord" <starl...@sidewalkastronomy.info >
wrote:
> I disagree, Astronomy is NOT a dying hobby, if it was, how come there's so
> many telescope makers all over the world?
>
> Sure I am a Model Rocketeer, a plastic model builder and love working out in
> my garden,

This is more or less proves my point to a degree. Model rocketeering
(and ham radio operators) are products
of the 1950s and 1960s and it is no surprise their adherents populate
amateur astronomy's ranks.

Date: 20 May 2007 09:02:06
From: RMOLLISE
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 19, 7:40 pm, Susan <sstr...@aol.com > wrote:
> On 19 May 2007 09:01:25 -0700, Rich <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>

Hi Susan:

> Because:
>
> 1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky

Light pollution is a huge problem. But people (like the IDA) are
working to comat it. Light pollution or no, there are very few areas
of the country (there are some, I suppose) where an hour's drive won't
bring you to a reasonably dark site. Of course heading out to a dark
site takes committment to amateur astronomy. This is a demanding
avocation, and it is NOT and never has been for everyone.

>
> 2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................

You've seen them all? Not hardly. If this is your opinion, you haven't
been looking very well. I was struck, last night, by how much
_difference_ there was from little Ursa Major galaxy to little Ursa
Major galaxy. This reminds me of that old canard, "all globulars look
alike." Anyone who's seriously observed globulars will tell you they
are as individual as fingerprints. If you want to see the differences,
though, you have to devote time and study to each object...not just
pause your go-to scope on your target for 2 or 3 minutes. The light
from these objects has often taken millions of years to reach your
eye...doesn't that galaxy, then, DESERVE 20 minutes of your time?!

>
> 3. Younger folks got better things to do

No. They've got _more_ things to do. Not necessarily better--in their
minds or ours. The interest is still there, just like always. The
students at the university here, for example, recently organized their
own astronomy club. They didn't get prompted to do it; they did it on
their own and it is thriving. The same maintains with high-schoolers
and younger. It is important that we (clubs) ease their entry into a
rather complicated avocation. When some Mom calls you enquiring about
your club for her daughter or son, sit up and pay attention and follow
up.

>
> 4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
> most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
> you'll ever get through a telescope.

_It ain't the same_. And even a grade-school child immediately
perceives the ineffable but very real difference. ;-)

>
> 5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.

Some are, most aren't, and I say that based on my membership in a
pretty darned large number of clubs across the country over the last
40 years. If I had to make a blanket statement about the amateurs I've
met over the last four decades? "The best and nicest people I have
ever known."

>
> 6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.

You're kiddin', right? It's cheap, cheaper than it's ever been. The
Synta/Orion StarBlast, for example, is an amazingly capable little
scope that sells for $170.95. How many 1980s dollars would that be?
Not many, no not many at all. ;-)

>
> 7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
> punishment.

Astronomy is and always has been a pursuit for the patient. But the
rewards, when they come, are immense. For many of us, the digital
imaging revolution, all the software, the internet, etc. means there
is always "something to do" astronomy-wise even in the midst of
hurricane season.

>
> 8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
> hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).

Only if you choose your equipment unwisely, assuming setup time is a
big factor for you. a 10 or 12-inch solid-tube dob is a powerful
instrument, but can be setup in the backyard and ready to go in 10-
minutes.

>
> 9. Too many other hobbies.

There _are_ many other hobbies, but few or none that offer the joy of
astronomy.

>
> 10. Too many nerds.

Some people in this pursuit might be classified as "nerds," I guess.
And what's wrong with that? If I recall correctly, the boys and girls
who were the nerds in highschool turned out to be those with the most
accomplishements, power, and money as the years roll on. In my
experience, the only people who worry about something like this are
those of a certain age. And age where they're unsure of themselves,
and maybe more concerned about the nerd within, than the nerd down at
the club. Your local club and your brother and sister amateurs will be
a source of support and enjoyment long after adolescent worries about
who's popular and who'd a nerd have faded away. ;-)

May I ask you a question, Susan? If the above is your opinion of your
fellow amateurs and amateur astronomy, why do you continue to be an
amateur astronomer, if you are? I'm wondering if you are indeed an
active amateur given your "number 4." ;-)

Unk Rod

Date: 20 May 2007 08:17:04
From: RMOLLISE
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 19, 11:01 am, Rich <rander3...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
> largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
> planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
> http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
> Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
> no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
> disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
> maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
> parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
> same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
> now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
> like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
> major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
> it so desperately needs.

Hi Rich:

I'm not sure whether you're referring to amateur astronomy in your own
country, Canada, or down here in the states. Anyway...

I can't speak about Canada, but I _can_ tell you amateur astronomy is
not "dying"...not way down here in my neck of the woods. It in fact
seems to be undergoing something of a renaissance, at least in this
part of the country. After struggling along for the better part of a
decade, things have been picking up over the last several years. Last
night, for example, I was astounded to look up from my scope and see a
field full of observers...for the after-new-moon-last-chance star
party of a small club under hazy skies. Further, there were both women
and young(er) folks in the crowd. A decade ago? I was lucky if I could
get one or two other folks to turn out, even on very good nights.

This seems to be the current experience of a lot of clubs in this
region, though any given club may wax and wane over the years.

As for organization, unlike our brothers and sisters in Canada and
elsewhere, amateurs in the U.S. decided long ago that our
organization, the Astronomical League, would be a little less...oh...I
dunno..."formal" than your national organization. That said, the AL
gets the job done, and is structured much like the venerable American
Radio Relay League.

As for "national meetings," we do have our ALCONs, which are fun and
well attended. But the BIG events are the ones _the rank-and-file_
have decided should be big--and that's a good thing. Trot over to NEAF
or Astrofest and you'll see we're in good shape.

What IS dying? I'm sorry to say that that appears to be s.a.a. The
noise level is higher than its ever been, and is beginning to approach
that of the parent group--that's my perception anyway. Maybe I'm just
misremembering how things were during s.a.a.'s golden age (pre-Yahoo),
but that's my perception.

Unk Rod

Date: 20 May 2007 14:35:01
From: starburst
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

RMOLLISE wrote:

> What IS dying? I'm sorry to say that that appears to be s.a.a. The
> noise level is higher than its ever been, and is beginning to approach
> that of the parent group--that's my perception anyway. Maybe I'm just
> misremembering how things were during s.a.a.'s golden age (pre-Yahoo),
> but that's my perception.
>
>

I don't know if it's as bad as sci.astro just yet, but I agree that
there's a current decline. I don't think it's so much that the noise has
increased so much as the signal has decreased. The best stuff right now
seems to be around the photographers like Pete and Anthony, but you can
only say "brilliant" so many times. Good equipment discussions that used
to dominate this forum are scarce now. I miss Valery's posts,
especially, as they combined info, stridency and his astounding grasp of
English vernacular. I also miss the refractor/reflector arguments. Even
Shaun's trolls were astro-related. We lost him and gained Oriel. And
there's very little now on ATMing or upgrading equipment.

Ah well.

Date: 20 May 2007 15:53:09
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"RMOLLISE" <rmollise@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179674224.427839.18990@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 19, 11:01 am, Rich <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What IS dying? I'm sorry to say that that appears to be s.a.a.
> The
> noise level is higher than its ever been, ...

This is true. And, sadly, the noise is amplified all too
often
by certain S.A.A regulars who respond to the Dan Mins
including
all its quotes and crossposts.
--

Rick Evans
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lon -71° 04' 35.3"
Lat +42° 11' 06.7"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Webcam Astroimaging
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm

Date: 20 May 2007 13:10:52
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"Rich" <rander3127@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179590485.513885.174780@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of
> the
> largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely
> nothing
> planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
> http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
> Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby.
<snip -- See originating post >

Do you have a shred of non purely anecdotal
evidence for the premise in your subject line?

Was astronomy ever really a very big hobby? I would
suspect no because of the past real higher dollar cost
of procuring a telescope, eyepieces and other accessories.

Some cite declining and aging club membership as
evidence. Whether you agree with his conclustions
about civic society at least one author Robert D. Putnam,
Bowling Alone : The Collapse and Revival of American
Community (Paperback) has observed a general decline along
with aging society and club membership.

The ability of individuals to participate in online groups
has largely obviated the need to join face-to-face clubs.
In fact it's arguable that the recent explosive popularity
of DSO CCD imaging with webcams is due to QCUIAG which, except
for its yearly symposium only "meets" online. I certainly owe
my involvement in DSO/CCD imaging to this group.

Finally, the fact that so many bottom liners are willing to
invest in relatively advanced telescope innovation suggests
the hobby alive, well and growing.

--

Rick Evans
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lon -71° 04' 35.3"
Lat +42° 11' 06.7"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Webcam Astroimaging
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 May 2007 22:05:34
From: laura halliday
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 19, 8:07 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote:
> On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstr...@aol.com> wrote:

> >4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
> >most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
> >you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
> But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that are
> deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur astronomers.

My own experience is that the Moon gets the oohs and aahs,
while anything further afield gets (at best) a polite "that's nice".
At worst, "is that it?"

The notion that you are seeing it live, with your own eye,
just doesn't seem to resonate with many people.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89lg pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.57 N 123 0.24 W - Hospital/Shafte

Date: 19 May 2007 19:16:00
From: thad@thadlabs.com
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

On May 19, 3:31 pm, Virgil <vir...@comcast.net > wrote:
> [...]
> Has anyone else noticed how anti-Christian so many who call themselves
> Christian have become?
> [...]

Here are some direct quotes from one of the worst:

<http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2007/05/18/
notes051807.DTL >

Difficult to believe how a public figure could harbor such hate and
display such ignorance. At least now he's pushing up daisies,
probably
the only good thing he's ever done. :-)

Date: 19 May 2007 20:40:06
From: Susan
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On 19 May 2007 09:01:25 -0700, Rich <rander3127@gmail.com > wrote:

>So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
>largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
>planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
>http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
>Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
>no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
>disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
>maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
>parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
>same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>it so desperately needs.

Because:

1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky

2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................

3. Younger folks got better things to do

4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
you'll ever get through a telescope.

5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.

6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.

7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
punishment.

8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).

9. Too many other hobbies.

10. Too many nerds.

Date: 19 May 2007 23:07:15
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstrait@aol.com > wrote:

>Because:
>
>1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky

And imaging has helped open up light polluted skies again.

>2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................

That's always been the case.

>3. Younger folks got better things to do

Mostly, they always have. Astronomy is, and always has been, a hobby
for a very small minority. These days, it seems that most hobbies are
activities for older folks (starting, maybe in their 30s or 40s).

>4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
>most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
>you'll ever get through a telescope.

But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that are
deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur astronomers.

>5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.

Speak for your own club.

>6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.

Astronomy isn't close to being an expensive hobby. You can easily get
yourself set up with very nice equipment for a few hundred to a few
thousand dollars. Most people I know who have serious hobbies are
spending far more than I do as an amateur astronomer.

>7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
>punishment.

Plenty of other hobbies are affected by weather. And plenty of
astronomers still find lots of observing opportunities.

>8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
>hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).

Setting up for visual astronomy shouldn't ever take more than a few
minutes. Setup for imaging requires more care and time, but is more
likely to be undertaken by people already committed to the hobby.

>9. Too many other hobbies.

That's something.

>10. Too many nerds.

No, too few nerds <g >.

Actually, I think amateur astronomy is far from dying. I think it is
thriving now more than it ever has.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 20 May 2007 13:34:35
From: Rick Evans
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"Chris L Peterson" <clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote in message
news:p0ev43lo6trkk4clhr1l0ehj4o15c7psch@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstrait@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Because:
>>
>>1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky
>
> And imaging has helped open up light polluted skies again.

Imaging has certainly boosted my personal participation.
>
>>4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can
>>log on to
>>most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than
>>what
>>you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
> But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that
> are
> deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur
> astronomers.

And, nature shows and websites certainly haven't killed
off nature tourism.
>
>>6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.
>
> Astronomy isn't close to being an expensive hobby. You can
> easily get
> yourself set up with very nice equipment for a few hundred to
> a few
> thousand dollars. Most people I know who have serious hobbies
> are
> spending far more than I do as an amateur astronomer.

Yup. He should try flying. In the '80s I owned a small
plane.
And, there are a lot more power boaters than hobby fliers.
On a per hour basis power boating is a lot more expensive
than
small planes. And, let's not get started on golf. ;-)

>
>>7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are
>>gluttons for
>>punishment.
>
> Plenty of other hobbies are affected by weather. And plenty of
> astronomers still find lots of observing opportunities.

Certainly also the case for flying and boating.

--

Rick Evans
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lon -71° 04' 35.3"
Lat +42° 11' 06.7"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Webcam Astroimaging
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevans33050/astroimaging/astroimaging.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://www.chempensoftware.com

Date: 19 May 2007 23:56:04
From: Susan
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On Sat, 19 May 2007 23:07:15 -0400, Chris L Peterson
<clp@alumni.caltech.edu > wrote:

>On Sat, 19 May 2007 20:40:06 -0400, Susan <sstrait@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Because:
>>
>>1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky
>
>And imaging has helped open up light polluted skies again.

Imaging is ok if you're into it.
>
>
>>2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................
>
>That's always been the case.
>
>
>>3. Younger folks got better things to do
>
>Mostly, they always have. Astronomy is, and always has been, a hobby
>for a very small minority. These days, it seems that most hobbies are
>activities for older folks (starting, maybe in their 30s or 40s).
>
>
>>4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
>>most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
>>you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
>But they don't. I'll bet that the vast majority of images that are
>deliberately sought out are being viewed by amateur astronomers.

Probably true.
>
>
>>5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.
>
>Speak for your own club.

I just did.
>
>
>>6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.
>
>Astronomy isn't close to being an expensive hobby. You can easily get
>yourself set up with very nice equipment for a few hundred to a few
>thousand dollars. Most people I know who have serious hobbies are
>spending far more than I do as an amateur astronomer.

It's still costly.
>
>
>>7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
>>punishment.
>
>Plenty of other hobbies are affected by weather. And plenty of
>astronomers still find lots of observing opportunities.

I can golf in the rain, play guitar inside anytime, etc........
>
>
>>8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
>>hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).
>
>Setting up for visual astronomy shouldn't ever take more than a few
>minutes. Setup for imaging requires more care and time, but is more
>likely to be undertaken by people already committed to the hobby.

True. It takes planning and forthought to drag out my SCT so it can
properly cool down.
>
>
>>9. Too many other hobbies.
>
>That's something.
>
>
>>10. Too many nerds.
>
>No, too few nerds <g>.

You're right.
>
>Actually, I think amateur astronomy is far from dying. I think it is
>thriving now more than it ever has.
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>Chris L Peterson
>Cloudbait Observatory
>http://www.cloudbait.com

Date: 19 May 2007 19:09:17
From: Jan Owen
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"Susan" <sstrait@aol.com > wrote in message
news:dp5v43dn513o9pmkl2k4vtagptldjhh87l@4ax.com...
> On 19 May 2007 09:01:25 -0700, Rich <rander3127@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
>>largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
>>planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>>
>>http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>>
>>Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
>>no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
>>disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
>>maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
>>parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
>>same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
>>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>>it so desperately needs.
>
> Because:
>
> 1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky
>
> 2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................
>
> 3. Younger folks got better things to do
>
> 4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
> most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
> you'll ever get through a telescope.
>
> 5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.
>
> 6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.
>
> 7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
> punishment.
>
> 8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
> hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).
>
> 9. Too many other hobbies.
>
> 10. Too many nerds.
>

Many of those CAN be issues if you let them...

But your message seems totally defeatist to me.

If you are unable to take your own scope outside, regardless of aperture,
dark skies or not, and see something beautiful up there, then, I'm sorry to
say that you aren't LOOKING very hard... Plain and simple...

So the problem is yours, and not because of any problem with astronomy as a
hobby, or the other folks IN the hobby...

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21

Date: 19 May 2007 23:51:47
From: Susan
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On Sat, 19 May 2007 19:09:17 -0700, "Jan Owen" <janowen1@cox.net >
wrote:

>"Susan" <sstrait@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:dp5v43dn513o9pmkl2k4vtagptldjhh87l@4ax.com...
>> On 19 May 2007 09:01:25 -0700, Rich <rander3127@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
>>>largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
>>>planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>>>
>>>http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>>>
>>>Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
>>>no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
>>>disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
>>>maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
>>>parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
>>>same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
>>>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>>>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>>>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>>>it so desperately needs.
>>
>> Because:
>>
>> 1. Light pollution has murdered the beautiful night sky
>>
>> 2. If you've seen one faint fuzzy........................
>>
>> 3. Younger folks got better things to do
>>
>> 4. Instead of looking through a nice telescope, people can log on to
>> most any website and see clearer, more detailed pictures than what
>> you'll ever get through a telescope.
>>
>> 5. Astronomy clubs are more about personalities than astronomy.
>>
>> 6. Astronomy equipment is way too expensive.
>>
>> 7. It's too frustrating weatherwise. Astronomers are gluttons for
>> punishment.
>>
>> 8. Setup takes too long when most folks have too little time on their
>> hands as it is (unless of course you have an observatory).
>>
>> 9. Too many other hobbies.
>>
>> 10. Too many nerds.
>>
>
>Many of those CAN be issues if you let them...
>
>But your message seems totally defeatist to me.
>
>If you are unable to take your own scope outside, regardless of aperture,
>dark skies or not, and see something beautiful up there, then, I'm sorry to
>say that you aren't LOOKING very hard... Plain and simple...
>
>So the problem is yours, and not because of any problem with astronomy as a
>hobby, or the other folks IN the hobby...

I didn't say these all apply to me. I still observe, but nonetheless,
there are 10 possible reasons - good, bad, or otherwise.

As long as there are people like you to champion the hobby, then maybe
there is hope.

Date: 20 May 2007 19:44:37
From: TMA
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

There are those who think the hobby is for geeks and such. Many infact.
Also, many feel it's too intellectual a
process whne all they really need are a good pair of binocs to get the
groove.

Date: 19 May 2007 16:04:21
From: Ben
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

Astronomy isn't a hobby, it's a way of life -

a 'Weltanschauung".

As far as I'm concerned there are no "amateurs", only

astronomers, some of whom are salaried. Most are not.

No one refers to Herschel or Lord Rosse as amateurs.

Ben

Date: 19 May 2007 14:01:15
From: g28401
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

> Atheists are the most badly-educated worldly religions of all time!
> They're rabid, self-aggrandizing, mammon-worshipping inhuman beasts.
> The fact that you Anti-Christian Atheists are getting old and dying-
> off to oblivion -- your lamentable souls dispatched Diis Manibus --
> pleases us Non-Atheists -- especially us Christians -- to no end. :)

> Clear Skies!
> Daniel Joseph Minhttp://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> iQA/AwUBRk9dN5ljD7YrHM/nEQKeTQCePqK1u7G25Nbt+5zk+ai2ca4B+rUAoNQl
> J1WgPtRAaPB85X7Gxl9Gx9g1
> =sFU4
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

wow, you seem to know a lot.

Tell me, how many books have you read in your life, Go Dog Go?

The Children's Bible?

or do you just listen to bible-on-tape.

astronomy is a dying hobby, because teens today DON'T CARE.

Religon has nothing to do with it.

Date: 19 May 2007 21:28:07
From: TMA
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

go take your meds Min....you're having an episode

"g28401" <notrilia.republic@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179608475.333267.291180@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Atheists are the most badly-educated worldly religions of all time!
>> They're rabid, self-aggrandizing, mammon-worshipping inhuman beasts.
>> The fact that you Anti-Christian Atheists are getting old and dying-
>> off to oblivion -- your lamentable souls dispatched Diis Manibus --
>> pleases us Non-Atheists -- especially us Christians -- to no end. :)
>
>> Clear Skies!
>> Daniel Joseph Minhttp://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> iQA/AwUBRk9dN5ljD7YrHM/nEQKeTQCePqK1u7G25Nbt+5zk+ai2ca4B+rUAoNQl
>> J1WgPtRAaPB85X7Gxl9Gx9g1
>> =sFU4
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> wow, you seem to know a lot.
>
> Tell me, how many books have you read in your life, Go Dog Go?
>
> The Children's Bible?
>
> or do you just listen to bible-on-tape.
>
> astronomy is a dying hobby, because teens today DON'T CARE.
>
> Religon has nothing to do with it.
>

Date: 19 May 2007 20:32:36
From: John Baker
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

On Sat, 19 May 2007 21:28:07 GMT, "TMA" <TMA@nospan.com > wrote:

>go take your meds Min....you're having an episode

When is Min *not* having an episode?

Date: 20 May 2007 19:40:51
From: TMA
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net > wrote in message
news:ho5v43ldnb5fhss529higonfipq7pgrj2f@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 May 2007 21:28:07 GMT, "TMA" <TMA@nospan.com> wrote:
>
>>go take your meds Min....you're having an episode
>
> When is Min *not* having an episode?

True. What lunacy doth pervade that soul?

Date: 22 May 2007 07:04:16
From: Terry B
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"TMA" <TMA@nospan.com > wrote in message
news:7v14i.45458$Xh3.6895@edtnps90...
>
> "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
> news:ho5v43ldnb5fhss529higonfipq7pgrj2f@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 May 2007 21:28:07 GMT, "TMA" <TMA@nospan.com> wrote:
>>
>>>go take your meds Min....you're having an episode
>>
>> When is Min *not* having an episode?
>
> True. What lunacy doth pervade that soul?
The curious thing is that Min actually read enough of a post to change its
subject and add his ranting. I was unaware that Min actually read anything
that he hasn't written and this is sometimes uncertain ; >)

Terry B

Date: 19 May 2007 16:33:43
From: Virgil
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

In article <HZJ3i.26708$g63.22531@edtnps82 >, "TMA" <TMA@nospan.com>
wrote:

> go take your meds Min....you're having an episode

An episode of reality, which is getting harder and harder to find in the
world of pseudo-Christian hypocrisy.
>
>
>
> "g28401" <notrilia.republic@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1179608475.333267.291180@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> Atheists are the most badly-educated worldly religions of all time!
> >> They're rabid, self-aggrandizing, mammon-worshipping inhuman beasts.
> >> The fact that you Anti-Christian Atheists are getting old and dying-
> >> off to oblivion -- your lamentable souls dispatched Diis Manibus --
> >> pleases us Non-Atheists -- especially us Christians -- to no end. :)
> >
> >> Clear Skies!
> >> Daniel Joseph Minhttp://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
> >>
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> iQA/AwUBRk9dN5ljD7YrHM/nEQKeTQCePqK1u7G25Nbt+5zk+ai2ca4B+rUAoNQl
> >> J1WgPtRAaPB85X7Gxl9Gx9g1
> >> =sFU4
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> > wow, you seem to know a lot.
> >
> > Tell me, how many books have you read in your life, Go Dog Go?
> >
> > The Children's Bible?
> >
> > or do you just listen to bible-on-tape.
> >
> > astronomy is a dying hobby, because teens today DON'T CARE.
> >
> > Religon has nothing to do with it.
> >

Date: 19 May 2007 22:46:07
From: Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer
Subject: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"Rich" <r...@...m > lamented in vain:
>So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
>largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
>planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtmlOrganizationally, amateur astronomy
>is a fragmented hobby. There are
>no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
>disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
>maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
>parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
>same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>it so desperately needs.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mainly, because young people are being taught in the public schools
that God, Family & Country are nothing more than "insanity", "chaos",
and that Christians are merely "brain-dead morons" by rabidly-insane,
viciously Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists like *you*, and like all of
your fellow other Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists who pollute these so-
called "astro" groups with your Anti-Christian Liberal Atheist madness.

Like their 'Genesis' account "In the beginning, Atheists created the
heaven and the earth. And all Christians are brain-dead morons, and
their worthless children and murdered unborn children are nothing but
brain-dead morons too. All aborted babies are brain-dead morons, and
the whole Universe is nothing but garbage. All Christians are inane
and vacuous. And Atheists are superior to these Christian imbeciles.
All children deserve to be kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered,
and all children should become homosexuals and commit suicide. We
Atheists are superior. All Christians are brain-dead garbage, and
all children should do lots of illegal drugs and commit abominable
homosexual acts--just ask our Atheist clergy at Boulder High School.
And God is garbage. And this was to be evening and morning, day one."

Non-Atheist parents are warning their children that all Atheists are
in fact nothing but Liars, Cowards and Murderers, and so Non-Atheist
children should avoid you Atheists like they'd flee for their lives
from a deadly level 4 military weapons-grade virus terrorist attack!

Non-Atheist parents are warning their children that Atheists cannot
ever be negotiated with, nor can they ever be saved from death and
perdition's unquenchable flames (which await them in the hereafter).
Atheists cannot ever be reasoned with. So Atheists must be avoided.
The only power against Atheists is Knowledge, Lawyers, Guns & Money.
Knowledge first and foremost, the pen being mightier than the sword.
Prayer works too. Pray for the Atheist enemy. Love the Atheist enemy
and promptly annihilate the Atheist enemy! (Pray the LORD's prayer.)
IOW, the Anti-Christian Atheists will not be destroyed by the hand
of mortal men, but by the immortal hand of the Rock of Ages, a.k.a.
the "stone that the builder's rejected". So make way for the LORD!
Vengeance is His alone, not ours. We can only forgive the Atheists,
knowing that they shall die and their souls shall burn in Hellfire
in good-time perfect, and imperfect, by the caelestial revolutions.
So let the Atheists die of old age: Death and Hell is their reward.

Savvy non-Atheists are skip-tracing all Anti-Christian Atheists on
record as being such. The best part is, you Anti-Christian Liberal
Atheists just can't seem to keep your filthy mouths shut, and as a
result, most of you have left a long Internet paper trail over the
years, and we Non-Atheists are becoming experts at identifying you.

No matter how often you've changed ISPs, email addresses, aliases,
etc, we Non-Atheists are becoming *world-class* private detectives
and skip-tracers. If you've ever written and posted so much as ONE
bad word about God, most especially one bad word against believers
in Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior, thus your record is indelible.
Again, lucky for us Non-Atheists, the vast majority of you Atheists
have left a long paper trail of intolerant Anti-Christian diatribes.

In conclusion, there are myriads of Non-Atheist astronomers who know
better than to associate with any of you ugly Anti-Christian Liberal
Atheists. We wouldn't be caught DEAD associating with you, attending
any of your Anti-Christian Atheist "star parties" (we know what goes
on, drugs, booze, bi-/homo-sexuality, sodomy, all seven deadly sins),
or do business with you, or hire you for a job, or be seen in public
(or in private for that matter!) in the same room with you, or at any
of your filthy Anti-Christian Liberal Atheist so-called "star parties".

God our heavenly father always belongs in all scientific discussions,
without exception, bar none. Period. You Atheists have declared war
against Christianity, thus we Christians have declared *WAR* on you!

So we Non-Atheists are pleased to know that our Non-Atheist children
are constantly being warned against you Anti-Christian Atheist scum,
so the world will improve as you Anti-Christian Atheists die off to
global extinction. The children of the new heaven and the new earth
won't even remember your Atheistic legacy of bigotry & intolerance.

Atheists are the most badly-educated worldly religions of all time!
They're rabid, self-aggrandizing, mammon-worshipping inhuman beasts.
The fact that you Anti-Christian Atheists are getting old and dying-
off to oblivion -- your lamentable souls dispatched Diis Manibus --
pleases us Non-Atheists -- especially us Christians -- to no end. :)

So, if you "intellectually superior" Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists
are sitting around wondering why us Non-Atheists, and our Non-Atheist
children, want NOTHING whatsoever to do with you, now you know why: You
did it to your-self. You self-destructed. Your delusions of superiority
and grandeur shall die with you and be buried with you and your fellow
Anti-Christian Atheists for all eternity...and the children of the new
earth will forget that you Anti-Christian Atheist animals even existed.

Clear Skies!
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBRk9dN5ljD7YrHM/nEQKeTQCePqK1u7G25Nbt+5zk+ai2ca4B+rUAoNQl
J1WgPtRAaPB85X7Gxl9Gx9g1
=sFU4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Date: 19 May 2007 22:47:25
From: Paul Duca
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

in article e2c145ba367bc4008fb3be12db6e3031@remailer.cyberiade.it,
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer at anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it wrote on
5/19/07 4:46 PM:
..and the children of the new
> earth will forget that you Anti-Christian Atheist animals even existed.
>
>

Because the ghost kids will be too busy having sex with each other?

Paul

Date: 20 May 2007 01:32:45
From: ZenIsWhen
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer" <anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it > wrote in
message news:e2c145ba367bc4008fb3be12db6e3031@remailer.cyberiade.it...
> "Rich" <r...@...m> lamented in vain:
>>So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
>>largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
>>planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>>http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtmlOrganizationally, amateur astronomy
>>is a fragmented hobby. There are
>>no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
>>disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
>>maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
>>parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
>>same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
>>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>>it so desperately needs.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Mainly, because young people are being taught in the public schools
> that God, Family & Country are nothing more than "insanity", "chaos",
> and that Christians are merely "brain-dead morons" by rabidly-insane,
> viciously Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists like *you*, and like all of
> your fellow other Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists who pollute these so-
> called "astro" groups with your Anti-Christian Liberal Atheist madness.

More evidence of yet another brainless, fanatical zealot who doesn't know
his ass from a hole in the ground.

Date: 19 May 2007 16:31:19
From: Virgil
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

In article <e2c145ba367bc4008fb3be12db6e3031@remailer.cyberiade.it >,
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer <anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it >
wrote:

> "Rich" <r...@...m> lamented in vain:
> >So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
> >largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
> >planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
> >http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtmlOrganizationally, amateur astronomy
> >is a fragmented hobby. There are
> >no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
> >disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
> >maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
> >parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
> >same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
> >now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
> >like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
> >major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
> >it so desperately needs.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Mainly, because young people are being taught in the public schools
> that God, Family & Country are nothing more than "insanity", "chaos",
> and that Christians are merely "brain-dead morons" by rabidly-insane,
> viciously Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists like *you*, and like all of
> your fellow other Anti-Christian Liberal Atheists who pollute these so-
> called "astro" groups with your Anti-Christian Liberal Atheist madness.

That is a superbly anti-Christian attitude.

What ever happened to "Love thine enemies"?

Has anyone else noticed how anti-Christian so many who call themselves
Christian have become?

Is it purely my imagination or is there a rising tide of hypocrisy in
the public pronouncements of those who call themselves Christian?

Date: 20 May 2007 01:48:46
From: Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

You are an Atheist. Every Non-Atheist in the world, most especially
Christians, understands perfectly-well that Atheists are nothing but
Liars, Cowards and Murderers! The record proves you are an Atheist,
a viciously Anti-Christian rabidly-Atheistic inhuman Liberal animal.
You either believe in God 100%, or you are a doomed Atheist. Period:

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=Virgil+%3Cvirgil@comcast.net%3E&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=19&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2007&safe=off

You shall die, whether it be of old age or sooner yet, but
you most definitely shall die, and your inhuman soul shall
burn in Hellfire for exactly the alloted purging, Atheist! :)

"Virgil" <v...@...t > lamented in vain:
><snipped the usual Atheistic insanity>

"...Yes, he has been trying to comfort him-
self with these suppositions; but he had
found all in vain. All in vain; because
Death, in approaching him, had stalked
with his black shadow before him, and
enveloped the victim. And it was the
mornful influence of the unperceived
shadow that caused him to feel -- al-
though he neither saw nor heard -- to
feel the presence of my head within the
room...." --Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849)

;::::;
;::::; :;
;:::::' :;
;:::::; ;.
,:::::' ; KKK\
::::::; ; KKKKK\
;:::::; ; KKKKKKKK
,;::::::; ;' / KKKKKKK
;:::::::::`. ,,,;. / / KKKKKKK
.';:::::::::::::::::;, / / KAPPA
,::::::;::::::;;;;::::;, / / GLOOM
;`::::::`'::::::;;;::::: ,#/ / HADES
:`:::::::`;::::::;;::: ;::# / HELL
::`:::::::`;:::::::: ;::::# / DEAD
`:`:::::::`;:::::: ;::::::#/ YOU
:::`:::::::`;; ;:::::::::## KK
::::`:::::::`;::::::::;:::# KK
`:::::`::::::::::::;'`:;::# K
`:::::`::::::::;' / / `:#
::::::`:::::;' / / `#

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBRk+KhJljD7YrHM/nEQK4SwCaA++F0BFD5TDHzInwUobDZzLhwS4AoMZE
v8zd4qFu15txB7uNAK2x31Rw
=jD3l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Date: 19 May 2007 22:50:48
From: Paul Duca
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

in article d2d1849fb4c89296b291ac718fcd5ff9@remailer.cyberiade.it,
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer at anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it wrote on
5/19/07 7:48 PM:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> You are an Atheist. Every Non-Atheist in the world, most especially
> Christians, understands perfectly-well that Atheists are nothing but
> Liars, Cowards and Murderers! The record proves you are an Atheist,
> a viciously Anti-Christian rabidly-Atheistic inhuman Liberal animal.
> You either believe in God 100%, and hope He believes in you .0001%

Date: 19 May 2007 22:49:34
From: DH
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

"Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer" <anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it > wrote in
message
sad sick pup.

Plonk

Date: 19 May 2007 18:03:50
From: Virgil
Subject: Re: Why *Atheist* astronomy is a dying hobby

In article <d2d1849fb4c89296b291ac718fcd5ff9@remailer.cyberiade.it >,
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer <anonymous@remailer.cyberiade.it >
wrote:

>
> You are an Atheist. Every Non-Atheist in the world, most especially
> Christians, understands perfectly-well that Atheists are nothing but
> Liars, Cowards and Murderers!

Then "Every Non-Atheist in the world, most especially
Christians, understands perfectly-well" things that are not true.

How does Cyberiade suggest that any atheist in a largely Christian, or
Moslem, or other theist, country is able to get way with such "murder"?

Are 'the Gods' on the side of the atheists enabling them to cover up
their crimes despite the watchfulness of the many theists suspicious of
every atheist activity?

Date: 19 May 2007 15:55:53
From: Stan Jensen
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

On 19 May 2007 09:01:25 -0700, Rich <rander3127@gmail.com > wrote:

> The result is the average age of an amateur
>now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
>like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
>major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
>it so desperately needs.

Because kids today have more things to do for school and the like.

When I was in school, I had all my homework donw before dinner, and
the evening (after chores) was mine to do what I wanted. Which in my
case was astronomy.

Kids have school, then hours of homework, and then the "almost
required" extracurricular activities to make sure they are
well-roudned enough to get into college. And on top of that, perhaps a
part-time job. They don't have time for astronomy.

And if they do, since most teenagers are jacked in, they get
everything they want off the internet. So they don't put an actual eye
to an eyepiece - they can remote observe, and look at pretty Hubble
photos online.

And also perhaps, adding to this, that the parents of kids that might
be interested are probably working two or three jobs, and don't have
time to ferry the kids around to various out of the way locations for
astronomy.

Heck, our monthly meeting of our astronomy club this month had a grand
total of ONE person in attendance. And that person was me. No one else
bothered to show up.

We performed a surbey in our club last fall, and a vast majority of
the members said the reason they don't show up more to meetings and
public events is that they are too busy, or there are conflicts.
People - unless they are *really* into the hobby - don't have the
time.

And for many, it's a passing interest. Back in 2003 we put nearly 4000
people through our observatory during the "Mars Extravaganza" - and
not one of them, even though they were interested and gung-ho, ended
up joining our club. They were excited when they were there, but after
they got home, and the next day arrived, they forgot about it as they
went back to their real lives.

I don't have any answers. I'm really hoping that the upcoming
International Year of Astronomy can bring more people in. I would love
to be in on the planning of major events for 2009.

Date: 19 May 2007 18:22:05
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

High school students are indeed busy, busy, busy, and it is hard for them to
find time for a hobby. Once they get to college, they are every busier, and
then they graduate, start working, get married, and have their own family.
A lot of hobbies have had a fair number of people take them up when they are
older, and have the time and the money to pursue them. I think this is even
more true than it was in decades past.

Clear skies, Alan

Date: 20 May 2007 09:32:31
From: Dennis Woos
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

> High school students are indeed busy, busy, busy, and it is hard for them
> to
> find time for a hobby.

I can attest to this - my two sons and many of the kids they know are doing
amazing things, learning stuff that is way beyond what I or any of my
friends knew at the same ages, and seem happier than we were. On the other
hand, they have little "free" time, and I am sure that the main reason they
do astronomy is because I do. I also know that they enjoy spending time
with the adults in the club, and consider them their friends.

> Once they get to college, they are every busier, and
> then they graduate, start working, get married, and have their own family.

My older son is off the college in the fall, and he says that he is taking
our 6" f/8 dob with him and getting out for some observing. Certainly,
there are a number of students studying astronomy/astrophysics, and there
are occasional public open-houses at the campus observatory. But I don't
know how his observing plans will work out in his new role of over-worked
college student,with the relatively light-polluted sky of suburban
Philadelphia.

> A lot of hobbies have had a fair number of people take them up when they
> are
> older, and have the time and the money to pursue them. I think this is
> even
> more true than it was in decades past.

It does take time and money, and the whole equipment thing is intimidating
for a lot of folks. To address this, our club is starting a new project,
the bulding of inexpensive 6" f/8 dobs. We have regularly offered mirror
making classes, but this is not for everyone and doesn't always (usually?)
lead to a working scope. Now we are going to start with finished optics and
focuser, spider, mirror cell, and 1x finder, along with roughly
pre-fabricated plywood, etc. and will help folks build the dob. When they
walk out of the last class they will have a fully functional top-quality
scope that will out-perform the commercial Chinese examples in every way.
Most importantly, the scope will not be a mystery to them and they will be
comfortable with collimating it or even modifying it. We have the prototype
built, it is wonderful, and there seems to be a lot of interest in the
class. Club members who either don't have a good scope or who have too
little or too much scope (for some, this means an SCT) are signing up to
build one. We also think that we can use this project to capture some of
the folks who we see at one or more public events, and who are interested in
getting involved in observing but who find the whole telescope thing
confusing. I wonder if the High School career-oriented woodshop folks might
not be interested in this as a project? We will see where it goes.

Dennis

Date: 20 May 2007 16:50:01
From: Steve Paul
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"Dennis Woos" <dpwoos@gmavt.net > wrote in message
news:1350jfjq5tpe8dd@corp.supernews.com...

>> Once they get to college, they are every busier, and
>> then they graduate, start working, get married, and have their own
>> family.
>
> My older son is off the college in the fall, and he says that he is taking
> our 6" f/8 dob with him and getting out for some observing.

I like that (seemingly candid, and possbily unintentional) affirmation of a
6" F8 Dob as a good grab and go scope. Something you'd be willing to haul
around with your stuff so that you have a workable scope on hand at all
times. Easy to store in a closet and carry out to the car or the dormatory
yard.

-Steve

Date: 20 May 2007 09:52:09
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

"Dennis Woos" <dpwoos@gmavt.net > wrote in message
news:1350jfjq5tpe8dd@corp.supernews.com...
][SNIP]
> It does take time and money, and the whole equipment thing is intimidating
> for a lot of folks. To address this, our club is starting a new project,
> the bulding of inexpensive 6" f/8 dobs. We have regularly offered mirror
> making classes, but this is not for everyone and doesn't always (usually?)
> lead to a working scope. Now we are going to start with finished optics
and
> focuser, spider, mirror cell, and 1x finder, along with roughly
> pre-fabricated plywood, etc. and will help folks build the dob. When they
> walk out of the last class they will have a fully functional top-quality
> scope that will out-perform the commercial Chinese examples in every way.
> Most importantly, the scope will not be a mystery to them and they will be
> comfortable with collimating it or even modifying it. We have the
prototype
> built, it is wonderful, and there seems to be a lot of interest in the
> class. Club members who either don't have a good scope or who have too
> little or too much scope (for some, this means an SCT) are signing up to
> build one. We also think that we can use this project to capture some of
> the folks who we see at one or more public events, and who are interested
in
> getting involved in observing but who find the whole telescope thing
> confusing. I wonder if the High School career-oriented woodshop folks
might
> not be interested in this as a project? We will see where it goes.

Dennis,

That sounds like a great project!

The equipment issue certainly is intimidating. A lot of people thrash
about, totally confused by all the choices and the often conflicting advice.
Add their common perception that they want to make the "pefect choice," and
the situation is even worse. The choices were much more limited and much
simpler when I got started in the mid 1960s. I am not good when faced with
a large number of choices, so I am glad I am not starting out today!

Clear skies, Alan

Date: 19 May 2007 13:12:06
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

As a Sidewalk Astronomer, I get people of all ages at my telescope and they
enjoy stoping and talking about the stars and planets.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

Date: 19 May 2007 11:25:35
From: Shelldigger
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

Its all about priorities...and maybe people having an interest that is
quickly quelled by the
600x scope they just bought at Wal Mart.

I invited some old friends of mine over one night to observe, they
loved it. Then asked me
how much money did my 12.5 Discovery cost me...around 1150
shipped(used,Astromart),
they figured that was too much money...yet they didnt squirm at all
when they bought a
15,000 dollar motorcycle. Some people just wont ever get their
priorities straight.

Astronomy has a lot of other hobbies to contend with. I cant think of
a better hobby to
spend my money on. Where else can one find awe, mystery, serenity, and
beauty, all
right out side in the front yard...while the kids are asleep in their
beds? Guess Im preaching
to the choir here on an asto forum....

Public outreach, something I should work on more. Theres no reason any
of us cant hobble
together an observing event in our little towns. I am sure there will
be a willing astro club nearby
that would help out, or an astro buddy. All it takes is a little
effort, so next time you want to do
something about the lack of youth in the hobby, get off yer duff and
get something going. Griping
about it here aint gonna help, it takes action.

On May 19, 11:42 am, "TMA" <T...@nospan.com > wrote:
> "Rich" <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1179590485.513885.174780@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > So it's sidewalk astronomy day. Meanwhile, the RASC, one of the
> > largest astronomy organizations in the World has absolutely nothing
> > planned for this, as far as I can see from their website.
>
> >http://www.rasc.ca/society/index.shtml
>
> > Organizationally, amateur astronomy is a fragmented hobby. There are
> > no mass organizational meetings. Instead, the hobby is made-up of
> > disparate groups, some largish, most small, and dedicated to
> > maintaining a fairly rigid social structure. Even the large star
> > parties which draw thousands of people tend to be populated with the
> > same people year to year. The result is the average age of an amateur
> > now must be in the late 30s or 40s. No new blood. In fact, it seems
> > like the vast hoards of retiring boomers are the major infusion (if
> > major is the word) of people into the hobby and not the younger people
> > it so desperately needs.
>
> Not according to the telescope industry. I don't see companies going bust
> due to
> poor sales.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Date: 19 May 2007 16:43:02
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Why Rich is a worse troll than Mick or Min

...

Date: 19 May 2007 12:38:18
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

I disagree, Astronomy is NOT a dying hobby, if it was, how come there's so
many telescope makers all over the world?

Sure I am a Model Rocketeer, a plastic model builder and love working out in
my garden, but those if I do them are daytime events, meanwhile I have my F5
10inch Dob loaded on a radio flyer wagon and will be walking the 4 miles up
to the corner I set up at. And yet you call it a dying hobby. Hell, I sill
wish I could have come from Hawaii with the Orion 12.5 f4.8 dob I had there
and over there I could even be found in Waikiki Beach at times with my
scope. And I had paid over $1,200 for it and look at the prices for a lot of
good scopes, they are not cheap at all.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

"Shelldigger" <lilc01f@peoplepc.com > wrote in message
news:1179599135.073832.206340@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Its all about priorities...and maybe people having an interest that is
> quickly quelled by the
> 600x scope they just bought at Wal Mart.

Date: 19 May 2007 16:42:34
From: TMA
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

Date: 19 May 2007 21:43:27
From: Curtis Croulet
Subject: Re: Why amateur astronomy is a dying hobby

> Not according to the telescope industry. I don't see companies going bust
> due to
> poor sales.

In fact most of them are having a hard time of it. Meade has been losing
money. They keep the doors open by selling those Christmas scopes everyone
here despises. One dealer that I know of lost money with Chinese scopes; in
other words, even going offshore wasn't sufficient to turn a profit. A
friend of mine is in the business. He makes scopes and optics for a brand
name everyone here would recognize, but his business stays afloat through
government and institutional work and as an OEM supplier of optical flats.
Niche companies like Astro Physics and TMB seem to be doing OK, but they
have a very small market that is willing to pay premium prices.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W