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Main
Date: 08 May 2007 09:30:43
From: AustinMN
Subject: Dark skies victory...
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The great and unstoppable Wal-Mart was going to open one of their
superstores about 400 feet from my house. I was ready to sell and
move.
But the whole community rose up in anger. Eventually, some wiser
heads prevailed on Wal-Mart and convinced them that their marketing
data was flawed, and that the cost of a private septic system would be
prohibitive. (There is no municipal septic system, and they would
have been constantly having their huge system pumped due to high
ground water levels.)
They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
Austin (watching for what will go in there)
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Date: 09 May 2007 00:31:01
From: 4po
Subject: Re: Dark skies victory...
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AustinMN wrote:
> Greg Crinklaw:
> > AustinMN wrote:
> > > They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
> > > superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
> > > still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
> >
> > Sadly that's hardly a dark sky victory. All you have done is brighten
> > someone else's sky. If you want to claim victory, how about approaching
> > them to install shielded lighting? The time to do that is now, when
> > they are in planning, and we've had success with that here. It's
> > amazing how one can make a difference by simply becoming involved.
>
> One of the things I learned is that all new Wal-Mart stores are
> supposed to install dark sky compliant lighting. When I asked how
> they defined "dark sky compliant" they said "100% of the light is at
> least 20 degrees below the horizon." I knew I wasn't going to get
> them to go better than that.
>
> However, I went to one of their new (less than 3 years old) locations
> about 10 miles away. From 1/2 mile away, there was clearly a dome of
> light over it anyway. The fixtures appeared to me to be dark sky
> compliant (from the parking lot I could see no direct light except
> from nearby fixtures), when you have three times as many as needed, it
> still wrecks the night sky.
>
> In other D.S. news, the new Minnesota Vikings stadium is not being
> built just 10 miles south of me... ;)
>
> Austin
Yours is a victory no matter how you (or Greg) cut it. Congrats.
Light domes occur over brightly lighted parking areas areas simple because of
reflection from concrete. As for you being personally responsible for lighting
up someone else's skies just because Walmart is going to move - well that's
just plain nuts.
...
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Date: 09 May 2007 08:35:01
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Re: Dark skies victory...
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4po wrote:
>
> AustinMN wrote:
>
>> Greg Crinklaw:
>>> AustinMN wrote:
>>>> They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
>>>> superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
>>>> still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
>>> Sadly that's hardly a dark sky victory. All you have done is brighten
>>> someone else's sky. If you want to claim victory, how about approaching
>>> them to install shielded lighting? The time to do that is now, when
>>> they are in planning, and we've had success with that here. It's
>>> amazing how one can make a difference by simply becoming involved.
>> One of the things I learned is that all new Wal-Mart stores are
>> supposed to install dark sky compliant lighting. When I asked how
>> they defined "dark sky compliant" they said "100% of the light is at
>> least 20 degrees below the horizon." I knew I wasn't going to get
>> them to go better than that.
>>
>> However, I went to one of their new (less than 3 years old) locations
>> about 10 miles away. From 1/2 mile away, there was clearly a dome of
>> light over it anyway. The fixtures appeared to me to be dark sky
>> compliant (from the parking lot I could see no direct light except
>> from nearby fixtures), when you have three times as many as needed, it
>> still wrecks the night sky.
>>
>> In other D.S. news, the new Minnesota Vikings stadium is not being
>> built just 10 miles south of me... ;)
>>
>> Austin
>
> Yours is a victory no matter how you (or Greg) cut it. Congrats.
> Light domes occur over brightly lighted parking areas areas simple because of
> reflection from concrete. As for you being personally responsible for lighting
> up someone else's skies just because Walmart is going to move - well that's
> just plain nuts.
> ...
What's nuts is intentionally misrepresenting what I said. PLONK again
trolling loser... how many times have you had to change your name now
that you've started using NewsGuy? Your Mom must be so proud of you!
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Date: 08 May 2007 13:16:24
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Dark skies victory...
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Greg Crinklaw:
> AustinMN wrote:
> > They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
> > superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
> > still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
>
> Sadly that's hardly a dark sky victory. All you have done is brighten
> someone else's sky. If you want to claim victory, how about approaching
> them to install shielded lighting? The time to do that is now, when
> they are in planning, and we've had success with that here. It's
> amazing how one can make a difference by simply becoming involved.
One of the things I learned is that all new Wal-Mart stores are
supposed to install dark sky compliant lighting. When I asked how
they defined "dark sky compliant" they said "100% of the light is at
least 20 degrees below the horizon." I knew I wasn't going to get
them to go better than that.
However, I went to one of their new (less than 3 years old) locations
about 10 miles away. From 1/2 mile away, there was clearly a dome of
light over it anyway. The fixtures appeared to me to be dark sky
compliant (from the parking lot I could see no direct light except
from nearby fixtures), when you have three times as many as needed, it
still wrecks the night sky.
In other D.S. news, the new Minnesota Vikings stadium is not being
built just 10 miles south of me... ;)
Austin
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Date: 08 May 2007 12:26:57
From: Greg Crinklaw
Subject: Re: Dark skies victory...
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AustinMN wrote:
> They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
> superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
> still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
Sadly that's hardly a dark sky victory. All you have done is brighten
someone else's sky. If you want to claim victory, how about approaching
them to install shielded lighting? The time to do that is now, when
they are in planning, and we've had success with that here. It's
amazing how one can make a difference by simply becoming involved.
Clear skies,
Greg
--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html
To reply take out your eye
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Date: 08 May 2007 16:47:32
From: Chris L Peterson
Subject: Re: Dark skies victory...
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On 8 May 2007 09:30:43 -0700, AustinMN <tacooper260@hotmail.com > wrote:
>The great and unstoppable Wal-Mart was going to open one of their
>superstores about 400 feet from my house. I was ready to sell and
>move.
>
>But the whole community rose up in anger. Eventually, some wiser
>heads prevailed on Wal-Mart and convinced them that their marketing
>data was flawed, and that the cost of a private septic system would be
>prohibitive. (There is no municipal septic system, and they would
>have been constantly having their huge system pumped due to high
>ground water levels.)
>
>They have permamnently withdrawn their plans for the nearby
>superstore. I suspect they will build about 5 miles north, which is
>still too close, but it's better than 400 feet.
Nice. But don't rest easy. Some Wal-Marts have installed (relatively)
friendly outdoor lighting, either by mandate or as a response to local
opinion. Five miles is close enough for bad lighting to be a problem.
Now's the time to try and get good lighting designed into the project.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
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