Big problems with my local astronomy club

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Date: 17 May 2007 11:45:31
From: patrickimo
Subject: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Hi,

A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
webmaster "participated" in the discussion briefly and then shut down
the thread when he decided that no further discussion was necessary.
The conversation was far from being over, however, and I expressed my
objection both to him and to our club's Board of Trustees. I asked
our president to look into the matter. As of yesterday, the ensuing
"debate" has produced one threat of legal action against me for libel
and two veiled threats of physical violence. To my perception, none
of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
officer to attend the club hearing that I've requested to deal with
all of this.

No matter how things turn out, I will soon be without an astronomy
club. It's very frustrating, considering that everything I've ever
read about amateur astronomy states that being associated with an
astronomical society is a very good thing. I've done astronomy on my
own for many years, and I'd really like to start associating with
other amateurs. What can I do? With gas prices being what they are,
the next closest astronomical societies are too far to travel to. I'd
try to form my own club, but I have my doubts that I will find
sufficient interest.

Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?

Date: 25 May 2007 18:47:38
From:
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 22, 2:59 pm, Tom Polakis <polakisgro...@cox.net > wrote:
> On May 22, 8:41 am, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Miami Valley Astronomical Society
>
> I have to admit that I was curious about the club. Simply giving some
> specifics and stating the name of the club would have done the
> original poster a lot of good in establishing credibility.
>
> The real important question regarding the MVAA is...
>
> http://mvas.org/index.php
>
> ...are those really floodlights on their observatory building?
>
> Tom

Yes they are. The observatory was build by the US Air Force in the
60's. These were installed by them as part of their security
requirements. We do not use them very much. They make it hard to see
the sky when they are on :)

Soper

Date: 25 May 2007 19:15:10
From: Jim Klein
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

You have several choices:

1. Shut up and be a quiet club member.

2. Go your own way and be an amateur astronomer without a club.

3. Start your own club.

4. Find a new hobby.
James E. Klein
jameseklein@earthlink.net

Engineering Calculations
http://www.ecalculations.com
ecalculations@ecalculations.com
Engineering Calculations is the home of
the KDP-2 Optical Design Program
for Windows.
1-818-507-5706 (Voice and Fax)
1-818-823-4121

"KDP2, not quite easy enough for a Caveman to use" :-)

Date: 22 May 2007 11:59:32
From: Tom Polakis
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 22, 8:41 am, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com >
wrote:

> Miami Valley Astronomical Society

I have to admit that I was curious about the club. Simply giving some
specifics and stating the name of the club would have done the
original poster a lot of good in establishing credibility.

The real important question regarding the MVAA is...

http://mvas.org/index.php

...are those really floodlights on their observatory building?

Tom

Date: 25 May 2007 19:19:06
From: Florian
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

> http://mvas.org/index.php
> ...are those really floodlights on their observatory building?

Those flood lights do look strange on an observatory! I like the BBQ =
however. ;-)

.Florian

Date: 22 May 2007 11:48:36
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Date: 22 May 2007 10:26:16
From:
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

>
> If you won't name the club that supposedly treated you so poorly, you
> are indeed a troll and should give it a rest.
>
> And if that club is a 501(c)(3), you can get their attention real
> quick if what you claim is true.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sound like he does not have clean hands in the matter. He is just
trolling for sympathy.

Date: 22 May 2007 08:58:38
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 21, 11:30 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for all of the responses. I've come back tonight after hearing
> from the club president, who says that my "resignation" has been
> accepted (I did not resign) and that I can re-join the club so long as
> my goals "are in sympathy with the society's." I've done quite a lot
> "in sympathy with" my club, and apparently that's all been completely
> forgotten in the face of this incident.
>
> According to Wikipedia, "in Internet terminology, a troll is someone
> who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages
> about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an
> online discussion forum to bait users into responding." I don't see
> how I was doing this. I was frustrated about a problem with my
> astronomy club and wanted to talk about it. For those who understood
> me and shared their own stories, thank you. For those who think I'm
> trolling, I fail to understand your animosity.
>
> As suggested, I will try to move on from this. It appears I have no
> other choice at the moment...
>
> On May 21, 3:07 am, KLM <mish...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Good luck! Your aggravation is understood and appreciated.
>
> > KLM

Apparently Patrick falls off his meds from time to time. This post of
his from another net group:

Greetings SubGenii,

I come to you representing both the NormalJeezus and The High Atheist
Con. We are here to annihilate Bulldada Time Control Central and rule
the planet via the powers of your "Bob" power bracelets. We are
indestructible and do not come with any sort of money back guarantee.

First, I want you to know that I cannot stand SubGenii. For proof, go
here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7066959966364819452&hl=en
Make no attempts to reply to my video, I shall simply reply that you
are SubGenii and therefore do not exist in the present space-time
continuum. Do not challenge me, lest you disappear in a puff of
logic. If you do not understand my hatred of you, go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFve5PaKoco All will be made clear in
this man's heroism.

Secondly, I am not responsible for the following link, and yet I have
only myself to blame for it: http://patrickimo.hobby-site.com/pfb/index.html
This sort of thing is obviously illegal. The Pastafarians are part of
the vast FDA Diet Conspiracy in which Dr. Phil McGraw participates. I
disavow the knowledge that I have sent you to this site. RAmen.

Thirdly, SLACKMaster Stang has recently said NotVeryNice things about
the wonderful science documentary, "What the BLEEP Do We Know?" I am
no SubGenius (my $30.00 will be on its way soon), but even I can see
that this incredible movie represents the very essence of Bulldada
itself. Stang should read his own publications sometime. The Normal
Marlee Matlin is obviously the sister of the AntiDobbs, and will
likely lead his Armies along with the Fab Four Horsemen of X Day to
victory in the final moments of Earth's transmaniaconic
uberconfiguration into Oneness with Evil. If the christian Sky Daddy
decides to grant the humans' foolish request to eliminate this Evil
for all time, we will all be in deep Dada.

I end this transmission with the following cryptic warning: Keep
Watching The Skies. There are pretty, fluffy clouds there. At least
we can glean some satisfaction from this conclusive proof (John F.)
Kennedy himself was human...all to human...and not another synthetic,
as so many claim...

I Am,

Patrick Craig
American Atheist
American Normal
American Dragon, Jake Long
American Ninja
American Pirate
American Pink

Date: 22 May 2007 08:41:37
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 21, 11:30 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for all of the responses. I've come back tonight after hearing
> from the club president, who says that my "resignation" has been
> accepted (I did not resign) and that I can re-join the club so long as
> my goals "are in sympathy with the society's." I've done quite a lot
> "in sympathy with" my club, and apparently that's all been completely
> forgotten in the face of this incident.
>
> According to Wikipedia, "in Internet terminology, a troll is someone
> who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages
> about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an
> online discussion forum to bait users into responding." I don't see
> how I was doing this. I was frustrated about a problem with my
> astronomy club and wanted to talk about it. For those who understood
> me and shared their own stories, thank you. For those who think I'm
> trolling, I fail to understand your animosity.
>
> As suggested, I will try to move on from this. It appears I have no
> other choice at the moment...
>
> On May 21, 3:07 am, KLM <mish...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Good luck! Your aggravation is understood and appreciated.
>
> > KLM

Total TROLL:

Site Admin

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Dayton, OH

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: Anyone Else
seeing MVAS Board not centered? Reply with quote
For me, the MVAS BBS looks fine in IE - but not in Firefox.

In Firefox the Frame that contains the BBS is offset to the right from
the Banner and Tabs.

Is anyone else seeing this?

Thanks,

Perry
_________________
Meade SN-8 on a LXD75
DSI-Pro
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soper
Site Admin - MVAS Board Member

Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Cyber Space (Huber Heights, OH)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Reply with
quote
FireFox has a bug in their handling of style sheets. This is what you
are seeing.
_________________
Jeffrey Soper
VP & Webmaster
Miami Valley Astronomical Society
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patrickimo
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Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Reply with
quote
Hi Perry,

I totally missed your post on this. I sent Jeff an e-mail about this
same problem, and now it appears to be fixed, and we're all aware that
it is fixed so I am just wasting bandwidth talking to you! Smile

Pat
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Date: 22 May 2007 08:35:27
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Date: 22 May 2007 08:54:19
From: Mij Adyaw
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

> About me:
>
> I am a 38-year old Atheist and member of the Church of the SubGenius.
> I love computers, astronomy, and SLACK.
>

We don't care about your anit-religious affiliation. In case you haven't
noticed, this is an astronomy newsgroup. Please stay on-topic or go
elsewhere.

Date: 22 May 2007 12:00:04
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Mij Adyaw wrote:
>> About me:
>>
>> I am a 38-year old Atheist and member of the Church of the SubGenius.
>> I love computers, astronomy, and SLACK.
>>
>
> We don't care about your anit-religious affiliation. In case you haven't
> noticed, this is an astronomy newsgroup. Please stay on-topic or go
> elsewhere.

...and why would one call oneself an atheist? Kinda like any human
referring to themselves as a non-pumpkin.

Shawn

Date: 22 May 2007 07:26:10
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Date: 21 May 2007 21:30:49
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the responses. I've come back tonight after hearing
from the club president, who says that my "resignation" has been
accepted (I did not resign) and that I can re-join the club so long as
my goals "are in sympathy with the society's." I've done quite a lot
"in sympathy with" my club, and apparently that's all been completely
forgotten in the face of this incident.

According to Wikipedia, "in Internet terminology, a troll is someone
who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages
about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an
online discussion forum to bait users into responding." I don't see
how I was doing this. I was frustrated about a problem with my
astronomy club and wanted to talk about it. For those who understood
me and shared their own stories, thank you. For those who think I'm
trolling, I fail to understand your animosity.

As suggested, I will try to move on from this. It appears I have no
other choice at the moment...

On May 21, 3:07 am, KLM <mish...@mchsi.com > wrote:

>
> Good luck! Your aggravation is understood and appreciated.
>
> KLM

Date: 21 May 2007 02:07:53
From: KLM
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

patrickimo wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
> webmaster "participated" in the discussion briefly and then shut down
> the thread when he decided that no further discussion was necessary.
> The conversation was far from being over, however, and I expressed my
> objection both to him and to our club's Board of Trustees. I asked
> our president to look into the matter. As of yesterday, the ensuing
> "debate" has produced one threat of legal action against me for libel
> and two veiled threats of physical violence. To my perception, none
> of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
> officer to attend the club hearing that I've requested to deal with
> all of this.
>
> No matter how things turn out,

Not an uncommon story. There are pricks in every club, some of
them very knoweldged and skilled, but pricks nontheless and if
they get in control they can and do destroy astronomy clubs that might
otherwise be viable.

However, long extant clubs usually have a history which means something,
at least to those who made the firtst scopes or dug the
first plot of ground, etc. You might get to know the historical people
and get them to support your staying. But, old timers often take the
club seriously (and themselves too) and any little grievance real or
imagined may become a focus for serious trouble - something naive young
members just dont expect, understand, or see at first until
Hell breaks lose over nothing. Behind it all are usually long standing
greivances people have, which may have nothing to do with the club!

I know one club that tore itself apart over (get this!): "should we
instal a timer on the electrical outlet to the telescope - to prevent
people from walking off and leaving the scope running to wrap itself
around the mount and tear cables etc off!". Seems like a no-brainer.
But, there were people adamently opposed to instaling the timer.
One thing lead to another and half the club quit and those left were
in an embattled embarrassed depressed state for years, literally.

Maybe an email to to club memebrs would solve this. Tell them
how nice a guy you are, you didnt mean to offend anyone, you know and
acknoweldge there is history inthe club and some very very talents
individuals you really want to glean knowledge and experience from, etc
etc etc ....... and take yourself off the hook.
Go to the next meeting and take donnuts! Smile.

Because, when push comes to shove we are all social animals and
need fellow companionship and there is knowledge and experience
in almost every club that members can benefit from.

Show club members "you are interested in astronomy" and let
the storm blow past you. (unless you like tilting at windmills and
diving on aircraft carriers with no bombs just for the fun of it!).

Good luck! Your aggravation is understood and appreciated.

KLM

Date: 18 May 2007 15:29:31
From: Pierre Vandevenne
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

patrickimo <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in news:1179427531.230802.85330
@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The

> of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
> officer to attend the club hearing that

May I suggest a psychiatrist?

Date: 21 May 2007 01:52:51
From: KLM
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Pierre Vandevenne wrote:

> patrickimo <patrickimo1@gmail.com> wrote in news:1179427531.230802.85330
> @h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> > talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
>
> > of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
> > officer to attend the club hearing that
>
> May I suggest a pediatrist?

Have you been check for diabetes?

Date: 18 May 2007 11:29:10
From: Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 17, 2:45 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
> webmaster "participated" in the discussion briefly and then shut down
> the thread when he decided that no further discussion was necessary.
> The conversation was far from being over, however, and I expressed my
> objection both to him and to our club's Board of Trustees. I asked
> our president to look into the matter. As of yesterday, the ensuing
> "debate" has produced one threat of legal action against me for libel
> and two veiled threats of physical violence. To my perception, none
> of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
> officer to attend the club hearing that I've requested to deal with
> all of this.
>
> No matter how things turn out, I will soon be without an astronomy
> club. It's very frustrating, considering that everything I've ever
> read about amateur astronomy states that being associated with an
> astronomical society is a very good thing. I've done astronomy on my
> own for many years, and I'd really like to start associating with
> other amateurs. What can I do? With gas prices being what they are,
> the next closest astronomical societies are too far to travel to. I'd
> try to form my own club, but I have my doubts that I will find
> sufficient interest.
>
> Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?

Some observations.

I took up golf at age 50. The guy who got me started was a scratch
golfer -- this guy could go out any day of the week and shoot par. He
showed me the basics of the golf swing, helped me pick up some clubs,
and played with me. He was close friends with the starter at a local
public course so we would go out at daybreak, play 18 holes, carry our
bags, and have a good time. While I was whacking my ball into the
rough, he was on the green practicing putts, waiting for me to catch
up. Then I started playing with the "serious golfers" -- assholes,
every one of them -- not at all like the guy I started playing with.
This is a long story but -- thanks to the "serious golfers", I soon
decided, fuck 'em. I quit golfing and have not looked back.

Astronomy is the same deal. My local club split into those who want
to argue about who has the biggest scope, the best camera, and who
knows Robert's Rules of Order on the one side and those who want to
look at stuff through their scopes on the other side. Those of us who
want to look through scopes have a lot more fun.

So, piss on 'em, start your own club, look through your scope.

Date: 18 May 2007 11:04:13
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 18, 7:50 am, starburst <n...@nospam.net > wrote:
> patrickimo wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> > SNIP
> > Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?
>
> Impressive troll. No real info given, no place, no details - just the
> vaguest sense that you're an offended crackpot. The addition of the
> bewildered rhetorical comments about wanting to "make a difference" and
> wondering about "how amateur astronomy is supposed to be" show the marks
> of serious talent.

Naw, he failed to include marginally relevant but cross-purpose
newsgroups, and that detracts from the troll rating. Of course, if he
had introduced other newsgroups in subsequent posts, (so those who
checked on his first post might not double-check), now _that_ would
have been impressive.

Austin

Date: 18 May 2007 13:02:31
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

AustinMN wrote:
> On May 18, 7:50 am, starburst <n...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> patrickimo wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> SNIP
>>> Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?
>> Impressive troll. No real info given, no place, no details - just the
>> vaguest sense that you're an offended crackpot. The addition of the
>> bewildered rhetorical comments about wanting to "make a difference" and
>> wondering about "how amateur astronomy is supposed to be" show the marks
>> of serious talent.
>
> Naw, he failed to include marginally relevant but cross-purpose
> newsgroups, and that detracts from the troll rating. Of course, if he
> had introduced other newsgroups in subsequent posts, (so those who
> checked on his first post might not double-check), now _that_ would
> have been impressive.

IMHO trolls deserve significant credit when they initiate thoughtful
conversation about a relevant subject rather than just initiating an OT
flame war.
Clearly there are some poorly run astronomy clubs out there hurting our
hobby. I belong to a club with seven aircraft plus on the balance
sheet. It runs well without too much political BS. It's pathetic that
these astro clubs with no, or few assets, have such pissing wars. I
guess it's an example of the smaller the consequences, the bigger the war.

Shawn

Date: 18 May 2007 15:54:34
From: Dave Jessie
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Shawn wrote:
>
> IMHO trolls deserve significant credit when they initiate thoughtful
> conversation about a relevant subject rather than just initiating an OT
> flame war.
> Clearly there are some poorly run astronomy clubs out there hurting our
> hobby. I belong to a club with seven aircraft plus on the balance sheet.
> It runs well without too much political BS. It's pathetic that these
> astro clubs with no, or few assets, have such pissing wars. I guess it's
> an example of the smaller the consequences, the bigger the war.

Hi Shawn,

That's a new expression for me: "seven aircraft plus". Can I assume you
mean $7000+ ??
Or, <gasp! >, $70,000?

Clear Dark Steady Skies,
Dave Jessie

Date: 19 May 2007 01:16:31
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Dave Jessie wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>> IMHO trolls deserve significant credit when they initiate thoughtful
>> conversation about a relevant subject rather than just initiating an OT
>> flame war.
>> Clearly there are some poorly run astronomy clubs out there hurting our
>> hobby. I belong to a club with seven aircraft plus on the balance sheet.
>> It runs well without too much political BS. It's pathetic that these
>> astro clubs with no, or few assets, have such pissing wars. I guess it's
>> an example of the smaller the consequences, the bigger the war.
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> That's a new expression for me: "seven aircraft plus". Can I assume you
> mean $7000+ ??
> Or, <gasp!>, $70,000?

Hmm, just re-read that. It reads like I belong to an astro-club with
airplanes!
"Yeah, we got two SOFIAs, a couple U2s, and some Citations and
Bombardiers for chasing eclipses."
Yeah right!
It's a glider club. Seven aircraft (five gliders, two tow planes)
plus all the trimmings. That includes trailers, 'chutes, club
buildings, and lots of other junk.
A club full of hard headed Type-A members, with huge assets and budget,
but it runs pretty smoothly entirely on volunteer work. Go figger.

Shawn

Date: 18 May 2007 22:37:26
From: Shawn
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Dave Jessie wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>> IMHO trolls deserve significant credit when they initiate thoughtful
>> conversation about a relevant subject rather than just initiating an OT
>> flame war.
>> Clearly there are some poorly run astronomy clubs out there hurting our
>> hobby. I belong to a club with seven aircraft plus on the balance sheet.
>> It runs well without too much political BS. It's pathetic that these
>> astro clubs with no, or few assets, have such pissing wars. I guess it's
>> an example of the smaller the consequences, the bigger the war.
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> That's a new expression for me: "seven aircraft plus". Can I assume you
> mean $7000+ ??
> Or, <gasp!>, $70,000?

Hmm, just re-read that. It reads like I belong to an astro-club with
airplanes!
"Yeah, we got two SOPHIAs, a couple U2s and some Citations and
Bombardiers to chase eclipses."
Yeah right!
It's a glider club. Seven aircraft (five gliders plus two tow planes)
plus all the trimmings. That includes trailers, 'chutes, club
buildings, and lots of other junk.
A club full of hard headed Type-A members with huge assets and budget,
but it runs pretty smoothly entirely on volunteer work. Go figger.

Shawn

Date: 18 May 2007 10:54:49
From: AustinMN
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Date: 18 May 2007 08:50:55
From: starburst
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

patrickimo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> SNIP

> Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?
>

Impressive troll. No real info given, no place, no details - just the
vaguest sense that you're an offended crackpot. The addition of the
bewildered rhetorical comments about wanting to "make a difference" and
wondering about "how amateur astronomy is supposed to be" show the marks
of serious talent.

Date: 17 May 2007 20:23:53
From: Ben
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 17, 9:50 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> I really thought I could make a difference in this world with my love
> of astronomy. I guess I needed this experience to wake me up and
> teach me that it just ain't so. I have no idea what to do at this
> point.

Keep on lookin' em' up. Astronomy is not about "world" and
it's certainly not about clubs. Astronomy is about *you* and
the photons and what *you* make of them.

I was the president of my club and got to watch it slowly
fall apart due to light pollution inthe area.

I can do without it.

Ben

Date: 17 May 2007 19:50:56
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Last night I would have jumped right on this. :) Tonight, after
considering all of the responses here, I'm thinking perhaps I should
just let this all go.

I really thought I could make a difference in this world with my love
of astronomy. I guess I needed this experience to wake me up and
teach me that it just ain't so. I have no idea what to do at this
point.

Sorry if I riled a few feathers with my post.

On May 17, 9:56 pm, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com >
wrote:

>
> If your club is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization, you have a HUGE
> stick. The behavior you describe, if properly documented, could cause
> loss of the club's tax exemption if reported to the IRS or your State
> Attorney General, both of whom are charged with monitoring such tax
> exempt and/or nonprofit clubs.

Date: 18 May 2007 11:18:00
From: Steve Paul
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

"patrickimo" <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179456656.828270.285370@q23g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> I really thought I could make a difference in this world with my love
> of astronomy. I guess I needed this experience to wake me up and
> teach me that it just ain't so. I have no idea what to do at this
> point.
>

The best way to the top, is to live free and live well. In time, others will
recognize your knowledge and skill, and seek you out.

Date: 17 May 2007 19:44:05
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Thanks for this information. I had a feeling that this might be a
more common problem, but I've not had extensive involvement with other
astronomy clubs so I really wasn't sure. I'm sorry to hear about your
club's challenges, and I hope things will work out for the best.

Our club has tossed all formal procedure (Robert's Rules, etc.)
completely out the window for the sake of making meetings go a little
more quickly. The by-laws are still part of the organization, but
they are little more than useless words on a piece of paper. I'm the
only one who has brought up the subject of by-laws, no one else has
said anything to me about them.

On May 17, 8:30 pm, Michael McCulloch <micha...@nospam.invalid.net >
wrote:
.
>
> It happens more than you think. It appears than whenever any group of
> people assemble, a power struggle inevitably ensues and turf is
> claimed even without cause to stake a claim of such ownership. My own
> local club has endured two such struggles of late, the first split the
> club, and the last alienated a single member that had many talents.
>
> The best way to deal with it is to adopt a set of by-laws and stick by
> them when an argument starts. Usually the majority of the club will
> vote with the written by-laws if you have a case.
>
> If the situation is not covered by the by-laws, then you have to wait
> for a change of leadership to change the direction and/or emphasis.
> Hopefully the by-laws include term limits. ;-)
>
> ---
> Michael McCulloch

Date: 17 May 2007 18:56:47
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 17, 6:17 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> "Airing all this here" gives me a chance to get some good input before
> making any rash decisions. If I haven't mentioned it already, my club
> president has pretty much banned me from talking to anyone, and vice
> versa. I can only talk to him, and he's sending very few replies and
> no useful information whatsoever. I have no one to talk to.
>
> I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I'm sure if our
> situations were reversed you'd be looking at every available option
> too. The opinions so far expressed have been very helpful, and I
> appreciate them.
>
> On May 17, 6:31 pm, "Jan Owen" <janow...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Sounds like a reasonable plan...
>
> > Airing all this here isn't...
>
> > --
> > Jan Owen

If your club is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization, you have a HUGE
stick. The behavior you describe, if properly documented, could cause
loss of the club's tax exemption if reported to the IRS or your State
Attorney General, both of whom are charged with monitoring such tax
exempt and/or nonprofit clubs.

Date: 18 May 2007 08:33:39
From: Stan Jensen
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Gee, and I thought the club I was in was the only one having problems.

Heck, we can't even get members to come to *meetings* let alone do
public outreach. And our board members? They don't do squat. One
members does most of the work, and he's about to quit. I've tried to
help, but it's no use.

Why keep pushing against something that won't move? Just get out of
the way and move on youself.

Date: 18 May 2007 18:14:46
From: Craig
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

I'm sorry to hear that. Are you on the board? If you want to have an
effect on the direction of the club, join the board as a trustee or an
officer and work from the inside.

I do know aht you are talking about in getting people to help out
though.

I think all clubs go through this however. Sometimes there is an
abundance of helpful folks other times a dearth of help.

Craig
--
Remove My_Skin to E-mail me.

Stan Jensen wrote:

> Gee, and I thought the club I was in was the only one having problems.
>
> Heck, we can't even get members to come to meetings let alone do
> public outreach. And our board members? They don't do squat. One
> members does most of the work, and he's about to quit. I've tried to
> help, but it's no use.
>
> Why keep pushing against something that won't move? Just get out of
> the way and move on youself.

Date: 17 May 2007 17:17:02
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Hi Alan,

Thank you for this advice. My club does have a provision in its by-
laws for expulsion of members "for just cause." The scary thing is,
the member who threatened me is likely not going to be on the
receiving end of such an expulsion. The active core of this society
has an incredible cohesiveness, and these people will do whatever it
takes to protect their own. I just wanted to be an active member of
this group for astronomy's sake, not for some bizarre social
fellowship. I am hopeful that not every astronomy club is like mine
in this respect.

Pat

>
> I've been involved with a club for about 25 years. Fortunately, I haven't
> heard of anyone being threatened with violence. I would think the board
> would take this very seriously. Indeed, it would be irresponsible for them
> not to. If your club has bylaws, you might want to see if they have
> provisions for club members behaving in a manner detrimental to the club.
>
> Clear skies, Alan

Date: 17 May 2007 20:30:24
From: Michael McCulloch
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On 17 May 2007 17:17:02 -0700, patrickimo <patrickimo1@gmail.com >
wrote:

>The active core of this society
>has an incredible cohesiveness, and these people will do whatever it
>takes to protect their own. I just wanted to be an active member of
>this group for astronomy's sake, not for some bizarre social
>fellowship. I am hopeful that not every astronomy club is like mine
>in this respect.

It happens more than you think. It appears than whenever any group of
people assemble, a power struggle inevitably ensues and turf is
claimed even without cause to stake a claim of such ownership. My own
local club has endured two such struggles of late, the first split the
club, and the last alienated a single member that had many talents.

The best way to deal with it is to adopt a set of by-laws and stick by
them when an argument starts. Usually the majority of the club will
vote with the written by-laws if you have a case.

If the situation is not covered by the by-laws, then you have to wait
for a change of leadership to change the direction and/or emphasis.
Hopefully the by-laws include term limits. ;-)

---
Michael McCulloch

Date: 17 May 2007 16:17:08
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

"Airing all this here" gives me a chance to get some good input before
making any rash decisions. If I haven't mentioned it already, my club
president has pretty much banned me from talking to anyone, and vice
versa. I can only talk to him, and he's sending very few replies and
no useful information whatsoever. I have no one to talk to.

I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I'm sure if our
situations were reversed you'd be looking at every available option
too. The opinions so far expressed have been very helpful, and I
appreciate them.

On May 17, 6:31 pm, "Jan Owen" <janow...@cox.net > wrote:

> Sounds like a reasonable plan...
>
> Airing all this here isn't...
>
> --
> Jan Owen

Date: 17 May 2007 22:55:33
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

patrickimo wrote:
> "Airing all this here" gives me a chance to get some good input before
> making any rash decisions. If I haven't mentioned it already, my club
> president has pretty much banned me from talking to anyone, and vice
> versa. I can only talk to him, and he's sending very few replies and
> no useful information whatsoever. I have no one to talk to.

Not to pick nits here but you have already violated that directive then ?

It sounds like you haven't been involved in very many groups before. As
someone else pointed out this happens all the time. The best recourse is
to stop being thin skinned about it. There seems to be a clique that is
running things and you are "personna non grata". You need to decide if
you can live with that.

Airing all of this here seems very strange to me, and apparently to
others as well. Seeking support from the group that is s.a.a. in order
to somehow validate your feelings ? Like I said, you need to get over it.

You seem to be a little hung up on the physical violence thing.......

Kick his ass and you'll feel better :)

>
> I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I'm sure if our
> situations were reversed you'd be looking at every available option
> too.

From what I know of Jan I would guess that he wouldn't let it bother him.

Bill

Date: 17 May 2007 16:11:26
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

If it's silly, I have no problem with that. My only question is,
since when does silliness require a threat of physical violence from
another club member? People in my club could have said the very same
thing you just did.

Once again: are all amateur astronomers expected to behave with such
hostility?

On May 17, 6:16 pm, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com >
wrote:

> This has to be about the silliest argument I've ever heard. The
> "public" is going to get no impression one way or the other from your
> website calendar. I assume your club is proactive in setting up public
> observing events and does not turn down qualified groups when they ask
> for help with an event.
>
> That is all that is required of a nonprofit--the language you quote is
> "boilerplate" and is in the charters of most tax exempt astronomy
> clubs.
>
> Get a grip--argue about something really meaningful like whether to
> post club operational and financial information on its website. The
> IRS requires that all US nonprofits have completely open records to
> maintain that exempt IRS Code sec 501(c)(3) status.

Date: 17 May 2007 19:34:35
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

"patrickimo" <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179443486.153470.14550@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> If it's silly, I have no problem with that. My only question is,
> since when does silliness require a threat of physical violence from
> another club member? People in my club could have said the very same
> thing you just did.
>
> Once again: are all amateur astronomers expected to behave with such
> hostility?

I've been involved with a club for about 25 years. Fortunately, I haven't
heard of anyone being threatened with violence. I would think the board
would take this very seriously. Indeed, it would be irresponsible for them
not to. If your club has bylaws, you might want to see if they have
provisions for club members behaving in a manner detrimental to the club.

Clear skies, Alan

Date: 17 May 2007 15:22:55
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

At this point, I'd really rather concentrate on getting back to my
personal mission in astronomy, which is public outreach. Naming my
club probably wouldn't make things much better than they are right
now.

I'll likely end up giving my own club a try. I won't expect much of a
response, unless of course I can connect with all of the other former
members of this club who had their own problems with it. Rumor has it
that the number is significant... :)

Pat

On May 17, 3:10 pm, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com >
wrote:

> NOT get involved in such civil messes.
>
> What club? What exactly did you threaten?
>
> Sounds like you may need your own club.

Date: 17 May 2007 15:31:37
From: Jan Owen
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

"patrickimo" <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179440575.213880.76800@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> At this point, I'd really rather concentrate on getting back to my
> personal mission in astronomy, which is public outreach. Naming my
> club probably wouldn't make things much better than they are right
> now.
>
> I'll likely end up giving my own club a try. I won't expect much of a
> response, unless of course I can connect with all of the other former
> members of this club who had their own problems with it. Rumor has it
> that the number is significant... :)
>
>
> Pat
>

Sounds like a reasonable plan...

Airing all this here isn't...

--
Jan Owen

To reach me directly, remove the Z, if one appears in my e-mail address...
Latitude: 33.6
Longitude: -112.3
http://community.webshots.com/user/janowen21

>
> On May 17, 3:10 pm, "M104gal...@gmail.com" <M104gal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> NOT get involved in such civil messes.
>>
>> What club? What exactly did you threaten?
>>
>> Sounds like you may need your own club.
>
>

Date: 17 May 2007 15:16:14
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Hi Starlord,

What this all comes down to is my club's dedication to public outreach
in astronomy. It would seem that, for a long time, resentment has
been building up amongst our members about having to spend time with
the public. Cub Scouts have occasionally been labeled "brats," and
some members don't like it at all when people who aren't members show
up at our observatory on "members only" nights. Some of our members
even fire green laser pointers over the tops of cars when they shine
headlights in the direction of our telescopes. I recently stumbled
across this "priority" system in our online calendar, and that pretty
much said it all: priority for public events is lower than priority
for club-centered events. When I pointed this out to the club on our
discussion board, the webmaster took it upon himself to kill the
discussion before it could really get going. My objections to that
action are what got me to where I am now. I wasn't trying to cause
any trouble, I just wanted to find out why my club was saying one
thing and doing another.

I'm very dedicated to public outreach in astronomy. I'd just like to
know how I can accomplish that outreach without having the local
affiliation in my area. I'd join a national organization (I'll be
sending in member-at-large dues to the Astronomical League tomorrow),
but my experience with such organizations is basically send them
money, they send me newsletter, membership ends, repeat.

Of course, going it alone is always an option. I've just found public
outreach to be more effective when I have some kind of affiliation.

Pat

On May 17, 3:53 pm, "Starlord" <starl...@sidewalkastronomy.info >
wrote:
> First of all just WHAT was the deal about? What did you not like or what
> didn't Work for you? so far with what you've said it leaves everyone out in
> the dark with out a scope.
>
> Club? I've lived here in Rosamond since feb1998 and no club is needed. The
> ones I chat with are right here on S.A.A.
>
> --
> The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
> Telescope Buyers FAQhttp://home.inreach.com/starlord
> Sidewalk Astronomywww.sidewalkastronomy.info
> AD Worldhttp://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

Date: 17 May 2007 16:33:41
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Well, it takes all kinds to do things, now when I was in Hawaii and a member
of the HAS, they had a lot of events for kids at schools and off you could
find me there with my 12.5inch F4.8 Dob and we were at the boy scout came
too and my very last deal over there was to set that dob up at a beach on
the leeward side of ohau for the scouts caming there. But then again, when I
had a running car and made the same offer of setting up my scope for the
scouts here, I got noghting but trash talk. And the schools are useless.

I have seen clubs (Not just astronomer either) that whill list the clubs
happenings as number 1 and other events are luck to get there. I have more
than one pot on the stove cooking too, as I am the leader of an
International Model Rocket group called the SIAR and I have dealt with lots
of people in my life and I see CITYS putting on events and they'll like the
city events first of all. Take this weekend, the International Sidewalk
Astronomy event, I had been playing to take part, but without a car and now
sore feet, my even maybe held right outside this trailer park this weekend.

--

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

Date: 17 May 2007 18:43:13
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

A club should be able to accomodate both public outreach and members who
desire to observe with "serious observers." I know, however, it can be
difficult to keep the two separate, especially if they use the same
facility. Long ago, our group held both "public" and "club" observing
sessions. We invited so many people to the "club" events that we just made
everything public. It seems to work out well. Most guests leave fairly
early, and then the serious observers have the place to themselves. Often
an exceptionally interested guest or two will stay late, but that is usually
part of the fun.

The serious observers often hold impromptu observing nights, which are
publicized on our Yahoo group, and that provides members with time to
themselves.

In general, amateur astronomers seem to enjoy sharing their interest with
others.

Clear skies, Alan

Date: 17 May 2007 15:16:16
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 17, 5:01 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> If you're comfortable with being the judge, jury, and executioner
> here, Greg, that's fine. I know the mistakes I made, and I know what
> I did not do. One thing remains very clear: no one in my club needed
> to threaten me with physical violence. I never thought amateur
> astronomers would be capable of such abject hostility. If I'm wrong
> about that, feel free to correct me.
>
> As for it having nothing specifically to do with astronomy, I must
> disagree. If any member of the public got the same impression that I
> did from our online calendar (public events "medium" priority, club-
> centered events "high" priority), I imagine they wouldn't be asking
> for stargazes from us any more. Such prioritizing is not the attitude
> that a club with the stated primary mission of "public education in
> astronomy" should have.
>
> But, I guess I'm just a troublemaker, so what do I know?

This has to be about the silliest argument I've ever heard. The
"public" is going to get no impression one way or the other from your
website calendar. I assume your club is proactive in setting up public
observing events and does not turn down qualified groups when they ask
for help with an event.

That is all that is required of a nonprofit--the language you quote is
"boilerplate" and is in the charters of most tax exempt astronomy
clubs.

Get a grip--argue about something really meaningful like whether to
post club operational and financial information on its website. The
IRS requires that all US nonprofits have completely open records to
maintain that exempt IRS Code sec 501(c)(3) status.

Date: 17 May 2007 15:01:56
From: patrickimo
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

If you're comfortable with being the judge, jury, and executioner
here, Greg, that's fine. I know the mistakes I made, and I know what
I did not do. One thing remains very clear: no one in my club needed
to threaten me with physical violence. I never thought amateur
astronomers would be capable of such abject hostility. If I'm wrong
about that, feel free to correct me.

As for it having nothing specifically to do with astronomy, I must
disagree. If any member of the public got the same impression that I
did from our online calendar (public events "medium" priority, club-
centered events "high" priority), I imagine they wouldn't be asking
for stargazes from us any more. Such prioritizing is not the attitude
that a club with the stated primary mission of "public education in
astronomy" should have.

But, I guess I'm just a troublemaker, so what do I know?

On May 17, 3:05 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:

>
> This has nothing specifically to do with astronomy. All types of clubs
> have these issues. But reading between the lines it sounds like you may
> be the troublemaker.
>
> Greg
>
> --
> The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
>
> Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Date: 17 May 2007 12:53:24
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

First of all just WHAT was the deal about? What did you not like or what
didn't Work for you? so far with what you've said it leaves everyone out in
the dark with out a scope.

Club? I've lived here in Rosamond since feb1998 and no club is needed. The
ones I chat with are right here on S.A.A.

--
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

Date: 17 May 2007 15:57:30
From: Marty
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

Like Starlord, the closest thing I've ever had to a club is this group.
Lots of jerks here, I'm the only one that's always right, but nobody
ever threatens me for it.
Marty :)

Date: 17 May 2007 14:30:49
From: Starlord
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

I was a member of the HAS over in Honlulu, Hi. and I did go to a meeting at
plamdale for the club there, but it seemed all they could talk about was who
had the most photogear and the costlyest of it, in fact my stargazer steve
dob was a toy to them, so I've not gone back and even if there was aother
club near by, with no running car, it would be out of my area too. So I AM
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond.

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
AD World
http://www.adworld.netfirms.com/

Date: 17 May 2007 15:18:51
From: Alan French
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

"patrickimo" <patrickimo1@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179427531.230802.85330@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
> webmaster "participated" in the discussion briefly and then shut down
> the thread when he decided that no further discussion was necessary.
> The conversation was far from being over, however, and I expressed my
> objection both to him and to our club's Board of Trustees. [SNIP]

I've found that when someone wants to end a discussion, especially someone
with some control (in many case, the boss; in this case, the webmaster),
arguing only makes things worse. It is often better to bow out, and perhaps
it can be pursued at a later date when things have calmed down.

It sounds like a rather mundane and relatively unimportant discussion got
out of hand. In the scheme of things, problems with online calendars are
not worth getting worked up about.

Clear skies, Alan

Date: 17 May 2007 12:10:36
From: M104galaxy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

On May 17, 1:45 pm, patrickimo <patricki...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A few days ago I started a discussion thread on my club's web site
> talking about a potential problem with our online calendar. The
> webmaster "participated" in the discussion briefly and then shut down
> the thread when he decided that no further discussion was necessary.
> The conversation was far from being over, however, and I expressed my
> objection both to him and to our club's Board of Trustees. I asked
> our president to look into the matter. As of yesterday, the ensuing
> "debate" has produced one threat of legal action against me for libel
> and two veiled threats of physical violence. To my perception, none
> of these threats was in any way justified. I must now get a police
> officer to attend the club hearing that I've requested to deal with
> all of this.
>
> No matter how things turn out, I will soon be without an astronomy
> club. It's very frustrating, considering that everything I've ever
> read about amateur astronomy states that being associated with an
> astronomical society is a very good thing. I've done astronomy on my
> own for many years, and I'd really like to start associating with
> other amateurs. What can I do? With gas prices being what they are,
> the next closest astronomical societies are too far to travel to. I'd
> try to form my own club, but I have my doubts that I will find
> sufficient interest.
>
> Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?

>From a US legal viewpoint, this makes no sense whatsoever. Police will
NOT get involved in such civil messes.

What club? What exactly did you threaten?

Sounds like you may need your own club.

Date: 17 May 2007 12:05:56
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: Big problems with my local astronomy club

patrickimo wrote:

>
> Is this how amateur astronomy is supposed to be?
>

This has nothing specifically to do with astronomy. All types of clubs
have these issues. But reading between the lines it sounds like you may
be the troublemaker.

Greg

--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky